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Whipping while Rating?

This is a discussion on Whipping while Rating? within the Barrel Racing forums, part of the Western Riding category

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        10-29-2012, 09:11 PM
      #21
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BarrelRacingLvr    
    COMPLETELY agree about the hands, with Polly I ask for rate then set my hand on her neck and lift slightly. If I do any more she noodles on me, the less contact for her the better. Which is why I do a lot of stopping and asking her to come around with my leg, and a lot of random weaving with leg.
    I have a noodler too. Love her but MAAAAN.
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        10-30-2012, 12:46 AM
      #22
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 1RedHorse    
    See that's when being a horseman comes into play. If a horse does BEAUTIFUL slow work but falls apart....what good is going back to that everytime? You don't compete at a lope. Haul haul haul. Make runs at your house ...tweak something then end in a good note. If the problem comes with speed only....tune at speed. Like I said, that's where being a horseman comes into play and knowing what the horse you're on needs. Everybody says slow work slow work but that's not ALWAYS the cure.

    In this horses case I'd tweak some things...aply it to the pattern...slow work...RUN...ok not perfect reinforce some slow work RUN.

    Horses can lose their confidence too. Work them through at speed. It's ok....this is a timed event.

    Of course everything I just said applies to a horse with a solid foundation. I personally don't like my horses over broke. That's why I work on what applies to barrels....go and work them.

    This is a fast paced sport I need their minds to keep up. If a horse gets flustered or intimidated well slow down. But in a few days well run again.....and haul until that horse is ok at speed.

    My point is...not every little thing is grounds to start completely over. IMO this horse needs a lameness check....some good leg cue schooling...then on the pattern and GO.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    Doing slow work isn't necessarily starting over at all. But run run run all the time is definitely not going to do any good at all. There is nothing wrong with doing slow work and hauling to a race and doing an exhibition and adding speed to see if what you're doing is sinking in. In fact that is the best thing to do. But a horse with the training this particular one has really shouldn't be running a lot. Having a the basic foundation of training and having a horse extremely broke is important, I suppose I don't agree at all with having a "over broke" horse being a bad thing... no offense at all just my opinion. I personally prefer to have my horse completely broke before even attempting a barrel pattern. That way it shuts the door to as much frustration to both myself and the horse I am working the pattern on. Why wait for the frustration level to spike with speed because the horse isn't broke enough to the training desired to make a barrel horse? Trying to fight with a horse that simply doesn't understand how to break his body in half and give in the nose and hind end is a pain in itself, especially when trying to go around a barrel at a full run.

    Some horses need to add speed to their runs in order to work the "kinks" out... all horses and riders are different, but when a horse is lacking the foundation and the basics speed only makes the situation more difficult. :)
         
        10-30-2012, 01:22 AM
      #23
    Trained
    I'm with IRed. I'm tired of hearing "that horse needs more pattern work slow" when I take Selena to the gymkhanas to season her. Well, it's her seasoning year. She's squirrelly right now. Her slow work is probably the most beautiful thing you've ever seen. Doing more of that isn't going to fix her.

    So I haul ass at home sometimes. Whip and spur and pretend I'm competing. She gets messed up, I break her down, fix it, and then circle around and fly back to that point and try it again.

    Hope never said run the horse over and over and over...She said, if the problem occurs at speed, fix it at speed. It does have its place.
         
        10-30-2012, 01:54 AM
      #24
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JustaSkippenJess    
    Doing slow work isn't necessarily starting over at all. But run run run all the time is definitely not going to do any good at all. There is nothing wrong with doing slow work and hauling to a race and doing an exhibition and adding speed to see if what you're doing is sinking in. In fact that is the best thing to do. But a horse with the training this particular one has really shouldn't be running a lot. Having a the basic foundation of training and having a horse extremely broke is important, I suppose I don't agree at all with having a "over broke" horse being a bad thing... no offense at all just my opinion. I personally prefer to have my horse completely broke before even attempting a barrel pattern. That way it shuts the door to as much frustration to both myself and the horse I am working the pattern on. Why wait for the frustration level to spike with speed because the horse isn't broke enough to the training desired to make a barrel horse? Trying to fight with a horse that simply doesn't understand how to break his body in half and give in the nose and hind end is a pain in itself, especially when trying to go around a barrel at a full run.

    Some horses need to add speed to their runs in order to work the "kinks" out... all horses and riders are different, but when a horse is lacking the foundation and the basics speed only makes the situation more difficult. :)
    Just curious....how long does it take you to get a horse breezing a solid pattern? I said that my previous post was built upon my horse HAVING a foundation.

    You say break his body in half around a barrel....what if that's not the horses style? What if you're trying to over train a horse that is a stiffer rollback style into a bendy wrap a barrel style? Maybe that's where in your experience a horse gets frustrated bc you're training for a cookie cutter "foundation" tht isn't his style.

    I don't want my horses Reiner broke. I don't want my horses to be super flexible bc you can run into one that can literally have its head one way an it's ass another.

    To me a foundation is
    Counter arcs
    Lead changes
    Rollbacks
    Vertical/lateral flexion
    Moving off my legs

    That's it. I don't want my horse over broke at the poll bc when if I'm making a run and their not finishing their turn on my leg alone when I go to that face....I want an immediate response not a """whooooaaaa flex laterally" deal.

    These horses compete at SPEED. They have to learn how to handle that. I think it's mostly PEOPLE that need more slow work to get with a horse. You have a bad run? Ok it happens. Don't break all the way back down. Did your horse dive? Slow work that barrel then try it again that day or a different day depending on your horse. Here's where being a horseman comes into play. You have to know if their mind is ok. You can't just put all horses in a pile of "he's not turning right go back to a snaffle and do figure 8s"

    The fundamentals I teach are basic and effective. It's EASY for a horse to learn. Too many people throw a million things at a horse and the horse doesn't know what's expected on the pattern. It's simple....it stays fresh and fun.

    I've seen so many horses ruined and my own ruined by trainers that nitpick the small things. They get so confused and frustrated they just don't know what to do.

    You know what Lance graves teaches his colts? Leads....side pass. In 2 months that saddle broke horse is breezing a nice set.
    Now I'm not lance Graves...I want to enjoy loping my horses on a loose rein but I UNDERSTAND that. And he's winning.

    If you're always breaking down to slow work what are you accomplishing? Sometimes you have to trust what you've taught your horse...grit your teeth and push through it.

    My mare works BEAUTIFULLY at a lope but after being off for so long she's falling apart at a run. So what're we doing? Hauling and running! And guess what? She was a second off a pro horse in TX last week even though she screwed up her 1st barrel. So we slow worked 5 min on that the next day...made a perfect run then trail rode. That simple.

    Like I said the OPs horse....lameness check...chiro...leg cue work...trot it...lope it...run it and haul.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SorrelHorse    
    I'm with IRed. I'm tired of hearing "that horse needs more pattern work slow" when I take Selena to the gymkhanas to season her. Well, it's her seasoning year. She's squirrelly right now. Her slow work is probably the most beautiful thing you've ever seen. Doing more of that isn't going to fix her.

    So I haul ass at home sometimes. Whip and spur and pretend I'm competing. She gets messed up, I break her down, fix it, and then circle around and fly back to that point and try it again.
    YES that's what I'm saying lol.
    Hope never said run the horse over and over and over...She said, if the problem occurs at speed, fix it at speed. It does have its place.
         
        10-30-2012, 07:18 AM
      #25
    Yearling
    Just going to throw in my .02 I don't think that horse is ready for speed, or to be pushed. I don't think she needs to be broken down all the way though. I fix all my problems at a trot, it works for me. I would continue what you have been doing but make sure you have control of her rear in, her whole body arched around the barrel. At a walk and a trot. But don't really run just let her pick her own pace,and build from there. Speed comes when the horse is ready, they will start running faster and harder. Just make it gradual. She does need to stiffen up a bit, I wouldn't flex her and lots of just neck reining while walking. I've always been taught to focus on the turns, not speed it comes later. So I want as perfect turns as I can get out of a horse before ever moving faster. Just focus on having a pretty pattern for now.
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        10-30-2012, 09:54 AM
      #26
    Weanling
    Just to clarify...again...I'm not saying the OP needs to run THIS horse. My earlier posts were generalizations.

    I do think you need to do alot of leg work....no hands...apply it off the pattern...then on the pattern...get her solid at a lope then go on :)
    JustaSkippenJess likes this.
         
        10-30-2012, 02:02 PM
      #27
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 1RedHorse    
    Just curious....how long does it take you to get a horse breezing a solid pattern? I said that my previous post was built upon my horse HAVING a foundation.

    You say break his body in half around a barrel....what if that's not the horses style? What if you're trying to over train a horse that is a stiffer rollback style into a bendy wrap a barrel style? Maybe that's where in your experience a horse gets frustrated bc you're training for a cookie cutter "foundation" tht isn't his style.

    I don't want my horses Reiner broke. I don't want my horses to be super flexible bc you can run into one that can literally have its head one way an it's ass another.

    To me a foundation is
    Counter arcs
    Lead changes
    Rollbacks
    Vertical/lateral flexion
    Moving off my legs

    That's it. I don't want my horse over broke at the poll bc when if I'm making a run and their not finishing their turn on my leg alone when I go to that face....I want an immediate response not a """whooooaaaa flex laterally" deal.

    These horses compete at SPEED. They have to learn how to handle that. I think it's mostly PEOPLE that need more slow work to get with a horse. You have a bad run? Ok it happens. Don't break all the way back down. Did your horse dive? Slow work that barrel then try it again that day or a different day depending on your horse. Here's where being a horseman comes into play. You have to know if their mind is ok. You can't just put all horses in a pile of "he's not turning right go back to a snaffle and do figure 8s"

    The fundamentals I teach are basic and effective. It's EASY for a horse to learn. Too many people throw a million things at a horse and the horse doesn't know what's expected on the pattern. It's simple....it stays fresh and fun.

    I've seen so many horses ruined and my own ruined by trainers that nitpick the small things. They get so confused and frustrated they just don't know what to do.

    You know what Lance graves teaches his colts? Leads....side pass. In 2 months that saddle broke horse is breezing a nice set.
    Now I'm not lance Graves...I want to enjoy loping my horses on a loose rein but I UNDERSTAND that. And he's winning.

    If you're always breaking down to slow work what are you accomplishing? Sometimes you have to trust what you've taught your horse...grit your teeth and push through it.

    My mare works BEAUTIFULLY at a lope but after being off for so long she's falling apart at a run. So what're we doing? Hauling and running! And guess what? She was a second off a pro horse in TX last week even though she screwed up her 1st barrel. So we slow worked 5 min on that the next day...made a perfect run then trail rode. That simple.

    Like I said the OPs horse....lameness check...chiro...leg cue work...trot it...lope it...run it and haul.
    Just to clarify, I haven't had a horse become overly frustrated when I have been training. My mare runs deep into her pocket and is that "stiffer rollback" style you are talking about, but in our slow work days I absolutely ask for her to break her body, give and stretch. If anything it has helped keep her body loose and her mind on me. I don't train to a "cookie cutter" style, but I absolutely expect all my barrel horses to break at the poll, counter arc, leg cues, laterals, etc. no matter what their style is. I am the trainer and therefore they will be trained to me. That is unless of course I have a already broke to the pattern horse I am running, which is rare.

    I have two mares that are my personal mares right now, and like I said one has that stiff rollback style where she runs deep into her pocket and snaps back and the other mare, a huge leggy girl, completely breaks in half beautifully and wraps the barrel in a snap. I don't care the style they run but they will be able to break their bodies' in half and move whichever way I choose.

    When you go back to slow work you are helping chill the horse's brain out, making them think about it. All my finished horse's have 3-4 slow work days where we work the pattern at a walk, trot, and maybe a lope if we are trying to really get something done. We work the pattern maybe 15-20 minutes per session and then work on keeping their bodies supple and leg cues, trail riding, roping etc.

    And I completely agree when you say you need to just grit your teeth and trust your horse and make a run. I am not in any way saying slow work only for any amount of time, I am just saying slow work is the "foundation" to a perfect barrel pattern and when a horse hasn't had the "foundation" patterning or training running is and should be simply out of the question until the training level is better.

    I am not in any way shape or form saying that your training methods are incorrect, I absolutely see where you are coming from, and it seems to working great for you. I just have a different approach that has worked greatly for me and my horses.

    I agree to disagree lol :)
         
        10-30-2012, 02:15 PM
      #28
    Weanling
    Well agree to disagree.

    I have rode, started and tuned on ALOT of different horses. I've rode with alot of people. ALOT. People that are winning pro rodeos....have slot horses....futurity horses...even reiners. That's where my experience and "training" methods come from. What's worked for me and what I've learned from them.

    Maybe we deal with different caliber of horses.

    You want a rodeo horse to know its job. And be solid. But you have to train a tough mindset. You can't "hold their hand" for 6 months. Same with futurity horses.

    If you did your approach with my mare....she'd be out of control barrel hitting fool. If I tried mine with yours I might have the same results.


    Once again that's where being a true horseman comes into play.
    Everything I've just described can not work on one specific horse, then I'd have to change my approach, the key is RECOGNIZING that. I've eaten my words before, and ill admit that. But this is the initial approach I take with all of mine. Then I tweak it according to that horse.

    My 3 year old would be RUINED if you tried to "fold him in half".

    I don't slow work my finished horses unless they're having a problem. If its not broke don't try to fix it. We rope, gather cows...swim and trailride.

    But I stick to the advice I gave the OP.
    Posted via Mobile Device
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        10-30-2012, 02:36 PM
      #29
    Foal
    Well you stick with your methods and I will stick with mine. Not every horse is the same and needs different approaches. Mine have always worked with me and the horses I have patterned.

    Once again... agree to disagree :)
         
        10-30-2012, 02:42 PM
      #30
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 1RedHorse    
    Well agree to disagree.

    I have rode, started and tuned on ALOT of different horses. I've rode with alot of people. ALOT. People that are winning pro rodeos....have slot horses....futurity horses...even reiners. That's where my experience and "training" methods come from. What's worked for me and what I've learned from them.

    Maybe we deal with different caliber of horses.

    You want a rodeo horse to know its job. And be solid. But you have to train a tough mindset. You can't "hold their hand" for 6 months. Same with futurity horses.

    If you did your approach with my mare....she'd be out of control barrel hitting fool. If I tried mine with yours I might have the same results.


    Once again that's where being a true horseman comes into play.
    Everything I've just described can not work on one specific horse, then I'd have to change my approach, the key is RECOGNIZING that. I've eaten my words before, and ill admit that. But this is the initial approach I take with all of mine. Then I tweak it according to that horse.


    My 3 year old would be RUINED if you tried to "fold him in half".

    I don't slow work my finished horses unless they're having a problem. If its not broke don't try to fix it. We rope, gather cows...swim and trailride.

    But I stick to the advice I gave the OP.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JustaSkippenJess    
    well you stick with your methods and I will stick with mine. not every horse is the same and needs different approaches. mine have always worked with me and the horses I have patterned.

    Once again... agree to disagree :)
    Then youll also admit...that your cookie cutter style wont always work either

    And I don't mean to come off as a know it all...Im still learning and im very grateful to have the chances to...but real experience is ALOT different then typing out what people should do on the internet. (not saying you lack it...just sayin')
         

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