do draft crosses show qualities that might make them good dressage horses? - Page 13
   

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do draft crosses show qualities that might make them good dressage horses?

This is a discussion on do draft crosses show qualities that might make them good dressage horses? within the Draft Horses forums, part of the Horse Breeds category

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        12-13-2012, 11:35 PM
      #121
    Foal
    Very nice!
         
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        12-14-2012, 02:40 AM
      #122
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    See the fun thing about being an Olympic sport means that the scoring is standardized, regardless of the country. As well there's this website called Eurodressage where scores from most CDIs are posted (anyone who stalks me enough can find some scores of mine on there) and another website called FEITV where you can also watch CDIs in Europe...
    Your argument is invalid.

    I never said draft horses can't do dressage. Just that there is a very feasible limit to the level they will be able to get to, and that even those that get to GP will not do well by an international standard (as the horse posted by Tnavas is proof of).
    For someone looking to achieve good scores at mid to upper levels, they will be better off with a purpose bred horse. The same is true of any sport. I don't know why a reiner on a QH is not snobby but the second someone suggests that there is a more suitable breed for dressage they get lept on and called an elitist bitch.
    I smell a double standard.
    Posted via Mobile Device
    While each mark has a definition, getting judges to be consistant applying them is not constant. We saw this one year at HOY when the International judge marked far higher than the National Judges. Dressage despite the advised marks is still very much what the judge interprets.

    I write year round from Level 1 through to Grand Prix level and sometimes I wonder if I'm watching the same horse as the judge. Having been trained by classical trainer - one a British Junior Selector and the other who trained at the Spanish Riding School I've been taught classically. I know my stuff.

    Your comment about Airthrey Highlander is extremely disrespectful - I wonder if you could have schooled this type of horse to the level he's reached, I doubt it! The horse will never be Olympic material but his work is generally correct. You have been used to seeing horses with excessive extravagence in movement (generally only in front) that to be honest may have a wow factor but is not always correct in its movement. We see horses constantly behind the bit, fighting the bit, swishing their tails being awarded high marks - where is the relaxation and harmony in that?

    Yet again I also say to you - get back to the OP's question

    Do draft crosses show qualities that MIGHT make them GOOD
    (notbrillient) dressage horses?

    Of course they can - if they have the right rider on them. Generally they won't as those that want to specialise will go for a warmblood, yet many of those have crappy action, suspect temperements and poor conformation. The good Warmblood will have more of a chance of being good because more people are likely to buy the horse for dressage. I can tell you that I've seen many do really bad dressage too.

    Conformation - Average conformation can do really well - built downhill struggle but are not impossible, horses with upright shoulders will find the lengthening very hard.

    My Clydesdale has a lovely shoulder and an extension that would make a warmblood jealous. We are just starting to work under saddle, rather than potter around and she is proving so easy and responsive to train. Her four year old (a first cross warmblood) also has an amazing extension and elevation. If you saw her and didn't know her mother was a Clydesdale you would think she was a Warmblood - which technically she is being by a TB. As a foal I was offered $10,000 for her - which for NZ is a hell of a lot of money for a foal.

    Just about any horse in existance can do the basics - Medium Walk, Working Trot, Working Canter, Collected Walk, Trot & Canter, Shoulder In, Leg Yield and Flying Changes. Some struggle with is the Lengthening. It will depend very much on the rider who schools the horse.

    Schooled correctly to move off the leg into the outside hand the different movements flow on from each other. When a horse's schooling is done too quickly the errors appear as the horse tries to compensate for shortcut training.

    One warmblood I owned was put together beautifully, but was awful to ride, she was thick as two short planks, very hard to school and had a nasty temper - I have a dent inthe side of my cheekbone as a result of her negative behaviour. So they are not always the best. My TB on the other hand would bust his guts to please you and co-operate. I took him up to Opem Medium before navicular got to him.
    jaydee likes this.
         
        12-14-2012, 05:47 AM
      #123
    Yearling
    Since the OP has not come back forever, I think it is safe to go off just a little. This thread has already become more of a conversation about Warmblood vs. Draft and rider skill.

    This video is interesting to me and might be to many of you.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=sK3TzBuGN0w

    Now, my point in posting that is again the importance of the RIDER in dressage. Totila is to me, one of the most lovely dressage horses (we all have our favorites) and I was sad when Gal was no longer his rider. He isn't the same. If you had 10 warmbloods (no matter how great they were) and put a mediocre rider on them, they still wouldn't go to the highest levels. The same for every horse out there. It is a team sport really. Rider and horse must BOTH be of a level of talent to go to the higher levels. When a thread like this comes up with a novice/beginner rider asking what horse to buy for dressage, my answer is still going to be, the breed that works for them overall. Unless they have unlimited resources, drive more then the average person and a will to get to higher levels in record time. They will NOT get there on their first horse.

    I have always been a root for the underdog person. I would still love to see many more very talented dressage riders take the challenge with less popular breeds and see what they could do with them. All that said, I LOVE a good warmblood as well. I just think part of riding is the challenge and doing things a bit out of the box adds to that.
    jaydee likes this.
         
        12-14-2012, 09:11 AM
      #124
    Weanling
    Very well said Inga - my thooughts entirely.

    This is why Airthrey Highlander is such a good example of a very everyday horse that has gone to the top because he has a brillient rider on board.

    Give this rider a Totillas and he would be world class. I love Totillas and it breaks my heart to see him with anyone else. Edward Gal and Totillas were the truly rare partnership.
         
        12-14-2012, 01:38 PM
      #125
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    See the fun thing about being an Olympic sport means that the scoring is standardized, regardless of the country. As well there's this website called Eurodressage where scores from most CDIs are posted (anyone who stalks me enough can find some scores of mine on there) and another website called FEITV where you can also watch CDIs in Europe...
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    Your argument is invalid.

    Posted via Mobile Device

    Anebel - It was no argument. It is a statement based on fact. Yes scoring is standardised but judges are not - they are human beings and each one sees something different in a horse (or whatever else they happen to be judging) Until someone invents a robotic judge this will never change.
    Its common knowledge that the better and more experienced the judge the more faults they will see in a performance. I know which type I would prefer to have instruction from.
    I have one particular friend who avoids one judge in the UK because she always marks her down on one particular thing and yet others don't.
    Similar things happen in the showring - its just a fact of life that you have to get used to
    You make so many good contributions to threads and then let yourself down by making spiteful remarks that weren't called for. That's a shame
    I'm also struggling to think why anyone would be bothered to 'stalk' anyone on this Forum. Why would someone even be bothered to do that? I thought that was reserved for people with celebrity status or the victims of psychopaths and I don't imagine they would be interested in your dressage scores!!!
    I havent see anyone call you an elitist bitch either so calm down and lose the paranoia
    Top dressage riders all over the UK are currently doing all they can to promote the sport and remove its elitist image. The focus of this is to get people in at the bottom level regardless of if they will ever progress higher because the sport needs the money to survive just like any other does.
    Not everyone starting out can afford a great horse but they can still put in the effort to make it the best they can and winning should never be everything - more important is the satisfaction that you have done the best you can with what you have and the pleasure you get out of it
    You may say that you don't think that only WB's are entitled to compete in dressage but you certainly make a good job of giving that impression
    If it gets people out there participating then to me it really doesnt matter if they ride a shetland or a shire horse
    How many people do you actually think can afford to compete at anything above mid level? Not a lot.
    Taffy Clayton and Tnavas like this.
         
        12-14-2012, 03:40 PM
      #126
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Inga    
    If you had 10 warmbloods (no matter how great they were) and put a mediocre rider on them, they still wouldn't go to the highest levels.
    This this this and THIS.

    I rode an FEI level dressage horse. Twice. He was DIVINE and I will never forget riding him. Have never had so much fun doing dressage.

    ...but I really REALLY struggled to keep him forward and pushing from behind, my circles just sucked, and because I didn't have a good enough grasp of the basics I wasn't even TESTED on whether or not I had any clue about laterals. I'm more of a jumper rider than a dressage rider and know very little about finesse... but my point is, I couldn't even get this horse to canter for more than 4 strides.

    Put a better rider on him, and suddenly he's doing 1-time tempis, brilliant extension and collection, pirouettes, you name the movement he was doing it with the better rider.

    Educated, VERY fancy horse. Crap rider. Crap results. Educated, VERY fancy horse, brilliant rider, brilliant results.

    I haven't seen MY gelding [cute horse but rather crap conformation and quite rusty on the dressage front] ridden by a better rider than myself but I'd be willing to put money on the outcome being that he goes better.

    Not rocket science.

    I do believe that a lot of horses would REALLY surprise people if the top riders put in the time, effort and correct training on something that's "a crapshoot" rather than something with "a good chance" like some fancy dressage-bred warmblood. Yes, best to go with something that is bred and built for the sport, but a horse of unusual breeding CAN do well. I have a friend who has a QH gelding with pedal bone issues meaning he HAS TO be shod to be sound - and yet he is a successful show hack and competes regularly in Advanced dressage.
    Bluebird and Tnavas like this.
         
        12-15-2012, 02:25 AM
      #127
    Weanling
    Clydesdales make excellent dressage horses! They turn some heads when they walk into the arena and no matter what you hear, they do compete competitively AND WIN! The only reason they aren't competing at top level (in the UK) is because they have not been doing it long enough and at the moment, there has been no rider good enough or should I say brave enough, to try a heavy at top competition. You go get yourself a heavy and if you can do it, take him all the way! Take abo****ely no notice of some of the negative comments you will get and you just enjoy it. At 6ft 5" you would love my Clydesdale Patrick - he is 18.1 hh and is the most fabulous riding horse. So comfy...I am 5ft 4".
         
        12-15-2012, 02:43 AM
      #128
    Weanling
    Please, please,please don't let this thread get into an argument about whether heavies make good dressage horses. Some people's comments although they speak about generic 'heavy horses', and don't own one or have never ridden one comptitively at dressage, do cause upset to heavy horse owners. The OP asked, because of his height at 6'5" could he ride a heavy horse (draft) and do competitive dressage. The simple answer is YES.
    Here is a video of a Heavy doing dressage. It's not at top level but look at how llight the movement is. Shows a lot of potential!
         
        12-15-2012, 08:29 AM
      #129
    Weanling
    I have actually broken, brought on and competed three different Clydesdales over the years, and whilst I love them to bits and they make fab riding horses, they aren't made for upper levels of dressage unless they are a real one in a million. They are too long in the back in general, and until they build up fitness and muscle they actually find a 20m circle a really hard thig to do, ESP in canter, as they are so big! Now I love Clydesdales, and mean no offence at all when I say that, but rey do have disadvantages as dressage horses. However, the Clydesdales I've worked with I've trained to novice/elementary dressage, which after some time they do very well at, and then they do a whole lot better when showing under saddle, so I'm by no means saying don't do dressage with them! If you want a draft, then yes they can do low level (and with good training and a good horse sometimes more), but if its specifically dressage you want to do I would say they aren't te first breed of choice: a warm blood will be.
    Posted via Mobile Device
         
        12-15-2012, 08:41 AM
      #130
    Yearling
    The horse in the video is very cute at that level and can probably go up another level or two, but it's by no means an upper level prospect. However, it's probably making its owner very happy doing what it's doing.

    FYI, I own a half-shire, who's very good at what she does (up to med level dressage on a good day) but she's by no means anyone's upper level prospect, either.

    Why do people get all wound up when it is suggested that warmbloods are the best breed for competitive, upper level dressage? To me, it's no different then saying thoroughbreds make the best steeplechasers and QHs make the best reining horses.

    On the Horse and Hound forum, someone asked about Highlands competing in dressage, and Highland owners/breeders basically said, yeah, generally speaking, they're good fun up 'till about medium, but if you want to go further, you're asking a lot from them and if they can manage that collection at all, they may not stay sound. No one got upset or accused people of being arrogant about certain breeds. It was all quite sensible.
         

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