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do draft crosses show qualities that might make them good dressage horses?

This is a discussion on do draft crosses show qualities that might make them good dressage horses? within the Draft Horses forums, part of the Horse Breeds category
  • Irish draught mare
  • Irish draught x connemara

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    02-18-2012, 02:30 AM
  #51
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModernThreat101    
The angles at the shoulders and knees also affect how well an animal can move within a certain discipline. Heavy horses have large angles at the shoulders and knees, connected to shorter legs for the torque needed to drag a heavy spade through earth. Their joints are wide, almost bovine-like to add surface area to support the immense pressures that hauling a load entails. Big butts and wide shoulders, though well-muscled, are still mostly bone.
PLease would yoou clarify the words I've made bold.
     
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    02-18-2012, 04:10 AM
  #52
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceasar    
i am a taller rider at 6'5 but im not really heavy for my height (185)... I was wondering if drafts often make talented dressage horses and if so which types in particular?
Not typically and not at anything other than lower levels IF it's typical of it's breed.

However have you considered the likes of a Cleveland Bay. I don't know if you've ever heard of Powder Monkey owned and ridden by Lady Joicey..... A genuinely great high level dressage horse and for sure up to that height and weight. Or Ferdie Elburg's Arun Tor. Another great CB.

Or a cross bred but rather than 50:50 just with a heavier horse, say perhaps a Percheron or a Clydesdale to influence size and substance.
     
    02-18-2012, 06:59 AM
  #53
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnavas    
PLease would yoou clarify the words I've made bold.

It was a quick look in an equine anatomy book that pictured the difference between light and heavy horses. If I recall correctly, the angles are more dramatic from the point of the withers, to the point of the shoulders to the elbow joints in a draft horse to increase the force exherted by the front end - larger angle on shorter bones = more pulling power in the forward direction. In a lighter boned horse, the angles are changed to allow for more extension and flex on the front to allow for lateral movements and better collection of the horse beneath itself. Like I said, it was a quick look, so my understanding is knowingly minimal. The ends of draft horse bones are wider and sturdier to allow for weight bearing vs fluid motion in a light horse.

Im no breeder and no sporthorse enthusiast, but if you match conformations as ideally as possible between two potential parents, creating a successful draft cross that would make it to the higher levels would be possible; perhaps the matter truly lies in judges' personal preferences on which animals get to place... maybe that sport draft cross DID do better than the next pure TB or Warmblood, but just didn't have the sleek aesthetic look of a 'proper dressage equine'.

Showing politics are always a factor when showing any species.
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    02-18-2012, 11:36 AM
  #54
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allison Finch    
Anebel, Yes, very few grade ponies, TB's, Draft crosses etc make it to grand prix. BUT, very few warmblloods do either. I have searched through several dozen young prospects to find one who MIGHT make it to the upper levels. And, even then, many don't have the heart (and extremely essential factor) to get there.

Do warmbloods have a slight advantage? Yes. Are they FAR superior? Not always.

Stereotypes are just that.
Yes I agree, but then we can from there get into a debate about Warmbloods breeding registries and practices, especially in NA. But that would be off topic. In general, once a breeder gets a good formula with good mares they can produce good horses, if the goal is breeding GP horses (this is not the goal of many breeders). And I think another big factor, especially in NA is a lot of people are sitting on horses that are capable of GP and simply can't train them to the level because of lack of knowledge. For example, my coach has 4 students now schooling the I2, all 4 bought their horses as prospects and have brought them along. The 4 horses are each from a different part of NA. The common factor between them is the coaching their riders get.
Warmbloods have a distinct advantage, the same way tall people have a distinct advantage in basketball. Not every tall person is an NBA basketball player, but the NBA is made up almost entirely of tall people. Of course not every warmblood is a GP Dressage horse in the making, that's like saying every tall person has the ability to play in the NBA. Its not a mutually inclusive thing, tallness and being in the NBA. Same with being a WB and doing GP. There are plenty of crappy warmbloods.
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    02-18-2012, 11:42 AM
  #55
Started
Of course draft crosses make good dressage horses - my DiDi is an Irish Draught X Connemara mare and she's only 15H1 but she beats the European warm bloods time after time

You don't have to pay a fortune for a German warmblood to win at dressage
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    02-18-2012, 11:45 AM
  #56
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
In general, once a breeder gets a good formula with good mares they can produce good horses, if the goal is breeding GP horses (this is not the goal of many breeders).

You're kidding me, right?

Every top breeder I know has the goal of producing horses that will go to the very top of the discipline they are breeding for. Otherwise, what would be the point?

You really think their goal is to produce training level horses? It all boils down to producing horses that will bring the greatest value...and there is not that much value in a good training level only horse.
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    02-18-2012, 11:59 AM
  #57
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by ModernThreat101    
but Id have to agree that the dramatic differences between a lighter boned horse (TB) and a heavy boned horse (DRAFT) would severely affect that animal's soundness over time.

Why??...the cross becomes a mix of the two and putting a heavy cob to a tb (or vice versa) to produce a lighter type is absolutely standard practice in the uk.
     
    02-18-2012, 12:26 PM
  #58
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allison Finch    
You're kidding me, right?

Every top breeder I know has the goal of producing horses that will go to the very top of the discipline they are breeding for. Otherwise, what would be the point?

You really think their goal is to produce training level horses? It all boils down to producing horses that will bring the greatest value...and there is not that much value in a good training level only horse.
Every top breeder. I'm talking about your run of the mill breeder, and around here, 80% of our "warmblood" horses produced are done with the amatuer in mind - because that's where the money is. If an amatuer can buy a Hano TB cross that might make it to third level but will be safe, when compared to a Jazz bred for GP but a bit on the crazy side, they're going to go with safe over GP talent.
I also never said "training level only" - that's you putting words in my mouth. I said not grand prix. Biiiig difference.

If every breeder was looking to breed Olympic calibre horses, we would not have any WBs for the amatuer - which is the base of the sport. The money is not in putting Jazz semen in your Ferro mare and producing a horse that only the highest calibre dressage rider can sit on - it's in producing a safe, quiet horse. If you can get it to flick it's toes, good on you. Why do you think you have such trouble finding something in NA that is bred for top sport??? Because so many of the horses are bred for an amatuer. I myself have also been looking for a suitable young horse to be my next FEI prospect, for 2 years now I've been keeping my eye out with the only criteria that it's nicer than what I'm already sitting on. I look over ads for hundreds of amatuer bred horses, and then the Jazz, Flemingh, and Ferro bred horses.

Anyways, this is off topic, if you want to discuss it further, feel free to PM me.
     
    02-18-2012, 12:29 PM
  #59
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry Godden    
Of course draft crosses make good dressage horses - my DiDi is an Irish Draught X Connemara mare and she's only 15H1 but she beats the European warm bloods time after time

You don't have to pay a fortune for a German warmblood to win at dressage
And she is very nice!! And she is great at the low, possibly medium levels of dressage.
However, that is not the subject of the debate! Could she go go the GP? At a CDI? At an international championship? On the national team? Compete against Carl Hester? Valegro? Totilas (and Gal)?
     
    02-18-2012, 12:42 PM
  #60
Started
No anebel, maybe she can't ever get to the very top, because that is the preserve of the very rich, the very talented, and the priviledged few.

But that would limit the sport to the very rare.

My little mare might make medium this year - her second year.

We'll see what luck and some hard work brings
     

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