Sugarbush Draft? Anyone heard of them? - Page 6 - The Horse Forum

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post #51 of 82 Old 01-24-2013, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by bkhart77 View Post
Sure, go ahead and list everyone. As SDHR doesn't have members, I'm curious what 'members' you are speaking with.
If you have no members, how do you have registered horses..?
Am I just being simple, or does this make sense??
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post #52 of 82 Old 01-24-2013, 01:05 PM
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Im just curious about all the horses with leg faults that are breeding horses then..the majority of those horses posted all stand under themselves quite a bit. Including the new yearling that was just posted (though not quite as much as some of the others). When do you plan on breeding that fault out?

Overall, each of the horses posted (from what I can tell from pictures) look to have some leg fault.
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The yearling was standing under herself in that picture -- some of that can be attributed to the fact that she's doing the end-to-end growth thing, but other pictures of her from different angles show what's going on. She'll grow out of it

The only horse that was posted that is part of the foundation program (not an 'already existed' Sugarbush) is Rosie, who has lovely legs (not cowhocked, not over at the knee, good angles, good depth of bone, etc....)

Which horses legs (pick one or two) are you especially concerned about?
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post #53 of 82 Old 01-24-2013, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Iseul View Post
If you have no members, how do you have registered horses..?
Am I just being simple, or does this make sense??
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Well.....for example, you can own a registered ApHC horse and not be a member, just as you can own a registered AQHA and not be a member. Membership and registration are two different things. In order to breed a registered horse, you don't have to be a member of the registry to which the horse is papered. Until this year, we (SDHR) weren't ready to do memberships -- we're getting to that point, but we're not quite there yet. But the lack of membership doesn't negate the registration of the horses.
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post #54 of 82 Old 01-24-2013, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by NdAppy View Post
Having such dissimilar horses conformation wise and trying to "set" a breed type with those same dissimilar horses is an uphill and losing battle... There is no predicting the outcome of the mishmash of breeding that seems to be going on other than for color...
I'd agree with you.......to a point. Again, the horses that we chose for Foundation must be within 70% of ideal type. So you're going to see diversity. The idea is (and you certainly can't do it within a single generation) to work towards type -- and as we do have a standard, we know what to breed towards.

From your name, I'd assume that you have Appaloosas? Is there a breed type within Appaloosas? (having them myself, I'd say 'no' as I've had everything from a small cowhorse to a huge HUS type and everything in between).

We have to start somewhere, and again I'd invite you to come to the FB page and look at the horses we've actually accepted as Foundation animals. Yes, there is dissimilarity, but there's also commonality (angles of shoulder, length of back, angles and proportion of hip/hock/stifle). We're starting with some similarites which, when bred to appropriate mates, should start to come together closer to ideal with each successive generation.
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post #55 of 82 Old 01-24-2013, 01:20 PM
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Appaloosas don't claim to have a type, they are for all intents and purposes a color breed. So yes there are dissimilar types within the "breed."

What you're doing is trying to set a type, and you are using a mish mash of horses... well that doesn't really work.

Looked at your FB page. All I see is a bunch of horses that have nothing more in common than color in some of them...
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post #56 of 82 Old 01-24-2013, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by NdAppy View Post
Appaloosas don't claim to have a type, they are for all intents and purposes a color breed. So yes there are dissimilar types within the "breed."

What you're doing is trying to set a type, and you are using a mish mash of horses... well that doesn't really work.

Looked at your FB page. All I see is a bunch of horses that have nothing more in common than color in some of them...

Actually, structurally, they have some commonality. They all have (ratio) within a 70% similarity of back length, neck length, head size (to the ideal, not to each other). Most of them will have a similarity (angles) in shoulder angle, hip angle and proportion. Not to each other, but to the 'ideal' standard. I'm not saying because they have four legs, they're alike -- but each of them has enough "points" as it were to fit within the 70% range that we were looking for (total score). Remember, we're not comparing them to each other, we're comparing them against ideal.

Would it be helpful, do you think, to have a picture of the 'ideal' SDH with the angles annotated so people can see what we're talking about?
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post #57 of 82 Old 01-24-2013, 01:31 PM
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You know that would be a great idea, maybe start afresh on a new thread with the ideal Sugarbush, some pics of the original foundation stock, and then what you are using now to recreate.

I can understand how the SB people maybe feeling under siege a little here, so maybe if we could start again with ideal types, then people like me would better understand what the end goal is, and maybe able to understand how you are trying to get there.
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post #58 of 82 Old 01-24-2013, 01:33 PM
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[QUOTE=prettydecoy;1859446]First of all, I have never once attempted to register any horse with your registry, so not sure where that idea is coming from? Likewise, I am well-versed in Appaloosa history. Just because an Appaloosa is descended from drafts, does not mean it has the genes to produce the draft phenotype. I stand by my opinions. My only "beef" with this registry is what it is doing to the quality of the horses... reducing it, and making the breed a joke in the eyes of many. Your assumptions are amusing. Good day ladies.

Okay, well if you're well versed in Appaloosa history then you should know there are and never have been purebred Appaloosa.

I'm fairly insulted that about your claiming the breed is going downhill. My daughter of Julgy's Shanning Gambler is also a Sugarbush and she's probably one of the most striking draft horses you'll ever see. She's exactly the type of mare that helped start this breed and now she's helping save it.

As for App lines not passing on draft phenotype; WHO are you trying to kid? I can pick the Old Fred descendants out of a line-up. Where do you think the WAP horses got that incredible bone? Where do you think the Bright Eyes Brother horses got the sabino and incredible amounts of hair?
And even looking at your horse Maverick's lines I can tell you that he's a product of the Wiescamp/Peavy breeding program so he got draft traits not only from his mother, but his Appaloosa father.
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post #59 of 82 Old 01-24-2013, 01:37 PM
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Originally Posted by bkhart77 View Post
SDHR has NO members, merely volunteers and board members).
You do not consider those who have paid registration fees, and who hold papers, as members!? Hence, the dictatorship comment.
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post #60 of 82 Old 01-24-2013, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Golden Horse View Post
You know that would be a great idea, maybe start afresh on a new thread with the ideal Sugarbush, some pics of the original foundation stock, and then what you are using now to recreate.

I can understand how the SB people maybe feeling under siege a little here, so maybe if we could start again with ideal types, then people like me would better understand what the end goal is, and maybe able to understand how you are trying to get there.


I think we can do that without TOO much of a hassle (plus, we really really like talking about what we're doing!)
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