Sugarbush Draft Horses - Page 3
 
 

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Sugarbush Draft Horses

This is a discussion on Sugarbush Draft Horses within the Draft Horses forums, part of the Horse Breeds category
  • Sugarbush draft stud
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    07-20-2012, 05:45 PM
  #21
Foal
I just had hoped for this thread to become educational for everyone to enjoy and learn from. As well as myself & find interested people to connect with about the Surgarbush's to explore more. But it has become filled with just meaningless nit picks about the horses problems, conformation, looks and if its even real....

I just wish to learn about this dying breed and not be told its not real. Just because you have never heard of it.

Ever hear of any of these breeds??
Swedish Ardennes
Kerry Bog Ponies
Poitou Donkey
Kaimanawa Wild Horse
Sorraia Horse
Konik Horse
Eriskay Pony
Nooitgedacht Horse


They're real too... just as rare as a sugarbush..
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    07-20-2012, 06:22 PM
  #22
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smokum    
I just had hoped for this thread to become educational for everyone to enjoy and learn from. As well as myself & find interested people to connect with about the Surgarbush's to explore more. But it has become filled with just meaningless nit picks about the horses problems, conformation, looks and if its even real....

I just wish to learn about this dying breed and not be told its not real. Just because you have never heard of it.

Ever hear of any of these breeds??
Swedish Ardennes
Kerry Bog Ponies
Poitou Donkey
Kaimanawa Wild Horse
Sorraia Horse
Konik Horse
Eriskay Pony
Nooitgedacht Horse


They're real too... just as rare as a sugarbush..
If you have information to share about this breed, share it. I would love to hear more about it, it's why I clicked on this thread in the first place- I saw an interesting but obscure breed name, followed by a picture of a gorgeous horse, and became interested. I wanted to know more.
Not a single person critiqued this animal's conformation or looks. Every single person here agrees that this horse is GORGEOUS.
I can only speak for myself on this but I'm not trying to attack anyone, I'm asking questions which was inevitable when you pair an obscure, unknown breed name with such a beautiful horse.
What I, personally, wanted to know was whether this was an actual breed. In response to that question there was basically "you're jerks for not thinking this is a breed, quit being mean to this horse I know him in real life" instead of ACTUAL EVIDENCE. If you know anything about this breed, by all means, share it. But so far not one of the people on here who have claimed that this is a breed has provided anything other than 'it's a breed because I've seen this horse in real life' or something else that really does not make a breed, except for one person who (reluctantly) said that this stallion is from two sugarbrush parents, which is enough for me...

If you want an educational thread, make it one. I want you to, because I want to know more about this breed. It's frustrating to come to a thread to look for answers to my questions, and not only not have them answered and find nothing educational, but to be met by what I feel is hostility for asking the questions...
     
    07-20-2012, 11:22 PM
  #23
Foal
Whether a breed is a rare breed or a cross is always a hot topic. Whether an animal is purebred or not can often be subject to personal views. It's a problem becoming more rampant in the dog world. It started with the labradoodles and goldendoodles that were meant to be service dogs.

My neighbors down the street bought a dog. They said that thy paid a lot of money for a "purebred, champion bloodlines cockapoo". I asked them at the time what a cockapoo was. (This was 20 years ago.) They themselves described it as a mix of a cocker spaniel and a poodle.

There are lots of people who will claim an animal is purebred when they are trying to get more money from people who don't know better. Then the people who got taken in are too defensive and embarrassed to admit it.

That leads to people being a lot more suspicious about "purebreds" they aren't familiar with. They look for reputable breed registries, a breed standard, and a long history.

That is harder to prove with actual rare breeds especially since any breed would, by nature, have to have started out through crossbreeding since someone had to have created it.

Look at Golden Retrievers. The breed is thought to have been created by crossing everyday retrievers of that period with the extinct tweed water spaniel.

It takes a lot of breeding and purpose to create a breed that breeds true and produces animals that can call themselves purebred.

Any rare breed these days, especially one like the sugarbush with only 12 animals left, is going to gave to expect doubt and questions. You also have to realize from a realistic point of view that with only 12 animals left the sugarbush is only going to survive through crossbreeding. At that point even if the registry is open to foundation stock the resulting animals are going to be considered crossbreeds.

Considering the current climate where people throw two animals together and call the resultng offspring a "new rare breed" its reasonable to expect people to question ANY rare breed whether it is one or not. Any reputable breeder should be able to educate others who are less informed- having that knowledge is part of what makes a good breeder.


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    07-21-2012, 12:13 AM
  #24
Yearling
This breed has been ongoing (and dwindling, now) for about 50 years, right?

So I guess the question is this:

How many generations does it take to consider a cross no longer a cross, but an actual breed?

If you breed two Sugerbrush horses together, you get the same result: a sugarbrush horse. That, in essence, is a breed.

Isn't that how they created the Paint breed? Crossing painted horses with QHs to get the body they want with the color they liked?

A couple generations down and you have a breed. The paint.

All breeds derive from different breeds, save for the Arabian or something like that.
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    07-21-2012, 12:56 AM
  #25
Foal
They are arguing this point over in the UK I believe. A breeder crossbred a dalmatian to to try and reduce the occurrance of a gene that risked the lives of all dalmatians. After 14 generations they fought to get them recognized as purebred and won in the UK. Just look up Grand Champion Fiacre's First and Foremost for more info.

In my experience when a "breed" breeds reliably and with an expected, predictable result, has an accurate, reliable breed standard, it is considered a breed.
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    07-21-2012, 01:28 AM
  #26
Foal
Sugarbush Harley's Classic O, known to most as O, a rare Sugarbush Draft Horse stallion. O is the last living stallion of the originating blood lines from the horses bred by the founder of the breed over 50 years ago.

Currently, less than 25 horses are known and registered with the SDHR, (Sugarbush Draft Horse Registry). To learn more on this unique and rare breed, you can follow us on our FB page Sugarbush Draft Horse, or visit our website at http://www.sugarbushdrafthorse.com/

The breed is growing... but unlike cockapoos and labradoodles they are a straight cross.. lab x poodle

Sugarbush is not appaloosa x draft

Appaloosa x Draft = a stonewall horse

Stonewall horse x stonewall horse = sugarbush draft horse

Sugarbush x draft = sugarbush.
Idk about appy x SBD though..... can't quote it.

I love this breed im so devoted to learn all I can about them,

I personaly have spoken with The owner of the last remaining stallion of the old pedigrees over email & phone to discuse breeding my perchron mare.

I wanted to go the old route & breed and start creating the stonewalls. But to have a piece of history through O & then atleast I have his blood & I can go from there to find the best matches, take my time & purchase the two best quality appaloosa & percheron I can find with the best blood & great champions that produced nice quality breeding stock and become involved with such an amazing breed.

I could never afford the AI & vet to breed my percheron mare to the great O. I saved the stud fee & yet not enough. So im still saving in hopes I don't miss out on one of his foals.




Here is a beautiful Sugarbush Draft Filly , registered!
     
    07-21-2012, 11:38 AM
  #27
Foal
Technically, Genetically, they will never be 100% Draft. They can become high percentage draft, like O IS. But... O stems from a long line of Percheron infusions onto his Percheron/Appaloosa cross which gave him his color. Can a breed be created from this, yes, with time.

I do admit I don't always agree with what is going on as far as the future of the breed, but I do follow the forums, facebook, ect. I like to see some of the horses every now and then again.

I think the reason the numbers are so small is technically you have to have more than one or two people trying to "create" a breed. It takes a large group of horses, multiple mares, and stallions to start from. Money is a big one. I know this from my own preservation goals, One Person can't do it all. This is most likely why the breed is so small. If he had been able to have 50 horses living comfortably and created a larger gene pool, there would probably be more than what there is less. But I'm sure real life got in the way of a lot of dreams. The fact that it has taken off as it has within the past few recent years gives it a running chance at becoming something bigger. We'll see with time where it goes, and how it goes.
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    07-21-2012, 04:32 PM
  #28
Yearling
LOL My sugarbush needs a trim. Hey now guys! I'm just talking about my horse's feet!

Okay that was bad. BUT IN ALL SERIOUSNESS, I am glad this thread is here. I just saw a photo of O on my facebook feed and decided to come to the forum and see if there was any discussion on this breed. I want to see more of these gorgeous horses. It's a very unique animal.
     
    01-17-2013, 07:41 PM
  #29
Foal
Smokum, I have Stonewalls and a Stonewall to a Stonewall makes another Stonewall, not a Sugarbush. And despite the wording that says Stonewalls are not a breed, they are. The majority of horses that went into making the Sugarbush's were Percherons and Stonewalls, not Appaloosas. The Stonewall is more of a sporthorse or warmblood while the Sugarbush is a draft. But it's a draft with the conformation of a riding horse, not strictly a driving horse. They can drive and be ridden. The current focus is to breed a massive horse with a comfortable ride.

To make this even more confusing, there are two different Stonewall registries. There's the original, which is a very controlled program that includes Stonewalls, Percherons, Knabstruppers and Friesians, and there's the IPSHR one that registers any draft x Appaloosa cross. Sugarbushes came from the first.

Draft x Appaloosa = IPSHR Stonewall
SSR Stonewall x SSR Stonewall = SSR Stonewall
Stonewall x Sugarbush = Sugarbush
Sugarbush x Sugarbush = Sugarbush

And may I add, SSR and SBDR are older than a number of more recognized (i.e. Better advertised,) breeds. Also, 'breeds' didn't exist before the 17th century. Before that they were all 'types'.

BTW, Warning, these horses are addictive!
     
    01-23-2013, 07:02 PM
  #30
Foal
Sugarbush Harley-Quinne was 7/8 Percheron. He is by Stonewall Rascal and out of Sugarbush Felina Del Noche.

A thread with pictures (page 2)...

Sugarbush Draft? Anyone heard of them?
     

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