Is Cinny starting to engage his hind? - Page 2
 
 

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Is Cinny starting to engage his hind?

This is a discussion on Is Cinny starting to engage his hind? within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category
  • How to fix curling, dressage
  • Dressage horse how to fix curling

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    08-03-2012, 05:24 PM
  #11
Foal
All I see is your horse avoiding contact and evading the bit. I've never seen his other videos, but I will tell you right now if you continue working him this way (tucking the head behind contact, completely on the forehand), you will have quite a bit of re-training to do to fix it. He is only two years under the saddle, but he still hasn't gotten the concept of moving forward and rounding/ stretching into the bit. Which is not terrible, could be worse, but what are your plans for him? I see what looks to be a dressage saddle on him so if your plan is dressage then you need to reevaluate your trainer's core concepts and the definition of rounding/ stretching. All I see is him trying to find the bit then getting bumped back up by the surcingle, causing him to duck and evade. He is also very behind the vertical - and not only that but curling away from the contact, which will take time to train out of him.

I can see he is trying to use his hindquarters and back so he is starting to understand that, but it is excessively difficult for him to do when he's so 'tied up' in front (curling behind the bit with a big lack of forward) and will be much more difficult if not impossible for him to do it correctly with him so on the forehand and behind the bit.

Does he always hold his tail out so stiffly? Really shows all the tension in his back as he's trying to hold the 'frame'. Of course, I never seen any other videos of him so I'd have to see those before really knowing if there is a consistent problem with his back.

Just so you know, I'm really not trying to sound harsh. On the plus side he seems very summited to the bridle with a lovely and obedient nature which is kudos to you for cultivating that attitude in him. But in order for you to get him back on the right track you will need to push him FORWARD and teach him to go into the bit instead of duck away from it - and at this point I don't think you can do it in side reins...but if you must...at least loosen them a few holes so that he does have room to properly stretch.

Very handsome boy and I would love to see him when he really starts rounding and using his hindquarters...after learning how to go forward and into the bit first.
     
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    08-03-2012, 05:47 PM
  #12
Foal
Sorry just read through my first post I meant "in JUST a surcingle" instead of a saddle with side reins. Without the saddle you will be able to see more of whatever form he is holding.
     
    08-03-2012, 06:40 PM
  #13
Weanling
Hi there! I'm new here but I'm an old DQ. I'll be frank and to the point about what I see here.

Cinny is moving front to back, not back to front. This is caused by the extremely tight sidereins, as in one foot too tight. They have caused him to curl up in a ball to avoid contact, and he is punished by the sidereins with a jab in the mouth each time he tries to uncurl. He is heavy on the forehand here-I haven't seen other videos so I don't know your history. Sometimes that's best for clarity. The loading of the forehand is caused by the lack of impulsion and the tight sidereins.

I just want to totally loosen the SRs, put him on a huge (3x bigger) circle, and send him forward.
I'm sorry your trainer believes this is the correct frame to develop the back .I assure you it is not, and you are doing your horse no favors here.

Again, I don't know your level of expertise and I apologize if my bluntness offends. Engagement comes from forward first and foremost. Move the engine (hindquarters) and the horse learns to engage and lift the shoulder, lightening the forehand. Add steady contact and voila-horse comes onto the bit. (Obviously oversimplified, but you get the picture).

With the SRs so short, all you will get, all Cinny will get, is punishment when you ask him to go forward. Study the vid where he starts to power forward and lifts his neck(yes, AND his head...that's OK) and gets popped in the mouth for his effort and drops back to a shuffle. The only moments where he even approaches having his poll as the highest point and head on the vertical are those surging steps. And he gets nailed.

You spoke of contact issues in your OP. He is a curler, yes? The way to "fix" a BTV curling contact evader is FORWARD. AND LEAVE THE MOUTH ALONE. Provide light steady contact,and if he curls, send him strongly forward. REPEAT AD INFINITUM. You
     
    08-03-2012, 06:48 PM
  #14
Weanling
Sorry,I ran out of room to write on my tablet.

Anyhoo, I write this as an ex-trainer who wants to help. I certainly don't know your horse and his issues, and am only basing my observations on the video provided.

Please remember that the first thing you need is impulsion; an engine. Not a vertical nose.

I hope you don't despise me and curse my children
     
    08-03-2012, 07:11 PM
  #15
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weezilla    
Hi there! I'm new here but I'm an old DQ. I'll be frank and to the point about what I see here.

Cinny is moving front to back, not back to front. This is caused by the extremely tight sidereins, as in one foot too tight. They have caused him to curl up in a ball to avoid contact, and he is punished by the sidereins with a jab in the mouth each time he tries to uncurl. He is heavy on the forehand here-I haven't seen other videos so I don't know your history. Sometimes that's best for clarity. The loading of the forehand is caused by the lack of impulsion and the tight sidereins.

I just want to totally loosen the SRs, put him on a huge (3x bigger) circle, and send him forward.
I'm sorry your trainer believes this is the correct frame to develop the back .I assure you it is not, and you are doing your horse no favors here.

Again, I don't know your level of expertise and I apologize if my bluntness offends. Engagement comes from forward first and foremost. Move the engine (hindquarters) and the horse learns to engage and lift the shoulder, lightening the forehand. Add steady contact and voila-horse comes onto the bit. (Obviously oversimplified, but you get the picture).

With the SRs so short, all you will get, all Cinny will get, is punishment when you ask him to go forward. Study the vid where he starts to power forward and lifts his neck(yes, AND his head...that's OK) and gets popped in the mouth for his effort and drops back to a shuffle. The only moments where he even approaches having his poll as the highest point and head on the vertical are those surging steps. And he gets nailed.

You spoke of contact issues in your OP. He is a curler, yes? The way to "fix" a BTV curling contact evader is FORWARD. AND LEAVE THE MOUTH ALONE. Provide light steady contact,and if he curls, send him strongly forward. REPEAT AD INFINITUM. You
Thank you for the explainations,you make what you say easy to envision as well as making what I know others tried to say make sense.

As for being a neck curler, he has actually always been quite opposite. The past two years he has paraded around with his nose in the air and his neck straight up like a giraffe lol. The curling is something he recently started to do.
     
    08-03-2012, 07:35 PM
  #16
Trained
I agree with weezilla. If I was watching that video and didn't know you I would think you are training him for WP.
Get him into a surcingle and out of the sidereins. Sidereins that low do nothing constructive. Try a German bungee attached at the top and at his ribs. Make it loose, make the circle large and then let him go forward. Right now he is not connected, not round and certainly not engaged.
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    08-03-2012, 07:36 PM
  #17
Weanling
Just trying to help.

So he was a giraffe? That's fun,eh? What bit were you trying? I sympathize with the feeling that head down, albeit curled, feels more comfortable than giraffe neck, but you need to be very attentive to him accepting contact and not dropping it. Soft steady contact on a 30 meter circle at a working forward trot will eventually get him to drop his head and engage.
If he is unused to forward, spend the first 10 minutes or so sending him around the arena on the rail at a nice BRISK trot, paying attention to getting him in front of your leg- where the slightest cue from you leg gets a big response. If he doesn't respond to the lightest cue, a brisk tap behind your leg with a dressage whip. Spend the first minutes on "Go"....(emmmm.nah...)...TAP "GO NOW!!!! I MEAN IT!!!!" Walk-trot transitions, tons of them, will get him in front of your leg, and asking him to lengthen(give me more!) on the longside is great, too.BTW, don't ask him to come back in the corners...just ask him to GO MORE on the longside. NOW you're ready to put him on the 30 M circle and work on contact. Spirals and other exercises would also help, though you must always pay attention to him being in front of your leg.



He is a handsome guy and I wish you the best.
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    08-03-2012, 09:09 PM
  #18
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
I agree with weezilla. If I was watching that video and didn't know you I would think you are training him for WP.
Get him into a surcingle and out of the sidereins. Sidereins that low do nothing constructive. Try a German bungee attached at the top and at his ribs. Make it loose, make the circle large and then let him go forward. Right now he is not connected, not round and certainly not engaged.
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I am glad to see that Anabel, who knows a ton more about lunging than I do, said that the low position of the rein is not good. I was thinking the same but lacked confidence in my limited knowledge. I think the German Bungee would also be something to try.

I would like to say, in addition, that Cinny looks very healthy. His weight look good, he's shiny and is just totally gorgeous. So, you are cetainly doing superbly there.
     
    08-03-2012, 09:12 PM
  #19
Super Moderator
Weezilla,

Can you come be my trainer?
     
    08-03-2012, 09:33 PM
  #20
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinyliny    
weezilla,

Can you come be my trainer?
AWWW...
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