Is Cinny starting to engage his hind? - Page 3
 
 

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Is Cinny starting to engage his hind?

This is a discussion on Is Cinny starting to engage his hind? within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category
  • Do side reins help with bucking horsrs
  • Do martingales create upside down neck on horse

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    08-04-2012, 01:11 AM
  #21
Super Moderator
Welcome to the forum Weezilla. Your comments were astute and well thought out. It will be nice to have you here.
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    08-04-2012, 02:03 AM
  #22
Showing
Weezilla.... WELCOME!!!! Great post in response to the OP's inquiry, and completely agree.
     
    08-04-2012, 04:14 AM
  #23
Foal
Yep Weezillia is right take those side reins off PLEASE
     
    08-04-2012, 04:23 AM
  #24
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by oh vair oh    
Just looks like dull torture to me.

Why not just ride him and help him engage his core by using your legs and teaching him lateral exercises? That would be more stimulating than promoting a false frame.

EDIT: He is so over-flexed at the poll he can't even move forward any more. He's lost all reach in his stride.

Totally agree, correct riding is the way to go not strapping the head down.

Have you read this book ? Http://www.amazon.com/Tug-War-Classical-Incorrect-Negatively/dp/1570763755/ref=pd_sim_b_1 it is very good.
     
    08-04-2012, 10:25 AM
  #25
Green Broke
I will try putting the reins looser but when he doesn't have them at all he hollows his back and throws his nose literally straight up in the air...at times his nose is higher than poll the while time he is on the lunge. All of his neck muscle was in the bottom and none in the top giving him quite an upside down neck. My trainer says he will never be able to carry correctly until we can change where his muscle mass is and her opinion is that the side reins will encourage him to use the muscles at the top of the neck instead of the bottom. She is a trainer that believes thehorses need to develop correct must le in the correct place in order to then do correct movements. Once the movements are correct the muscling will further develop and maintain itself.

He has indeed made the muscles along the top of his neck and in the area of his spine more developed. His neck is proportioned much better.

I will however loosen the reins. We just don't want him going around with his back completely hollowed and his nose in the air prancing around like a stud who senses a mare in season.
     
    08-04-2012, 11:04 AM
  #26
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinnys Whinny    
She is a trainer that believes thehorses need to develop correct muscle in the correct place in order to then do correct movements. Once the movements are correct the muscling will further develop and maintain itself.
.
You do of course need the muscle in the correct place but it needs to be developed by correct riding so the the collection and contact of the reins is all part of that. A fixed side rein doesn't encourage a balanced self carriage or correct contact of the horse seeking the bit and can often result in the horse fixing it's neck into the outline in a forced shape so when you ride they might be behind the bit and not moving into it. I would rather see a horse naturally stretching down (which helps topline) than in sides reins and you will learn so much more if the schooling is ridden schooling with a good instructor. Lovely horse by the way
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    08-04-2012, 12:02 PM
  #27
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clava    
You do of course need the muscle in the correct place but it needs to be developed by correct riding so the the collection and contact of the reins is all part of that. A fixed side rein doesn't encourage a balanced self carriage or correct contact of the horse seeking the bit and can often result in the horse fixing it's neck into the outline in a forced shape so when you ride they might be behind the bit and not moving into it. I would rather see a horse naturally stretching down (which helps topline) than in sides reins and you will learn so much more if the schooling is ridden schooling with a good instructor. Lovely horse by the way
Trust me when I ride, he still tries to throw his nose in the air. His upside down neck is 8 years in the making, his high nose is 8 years of habit. The lines are only for building muscle, but I do not ride with any gadget. I think if we were trying to force a frame we would be tempted to put a german martingale on him or something else to that effect but we don't.

Don't get me wrong, I did pay attention to and respect what you have said and it has brought up some more questions for my trainer. A lot of what everyone here says makes a lot of sense and I will be incorporating it into my questions/discussions with my trainer.

I value and respect everyone's opinion. :)
     
    08-04-2012, 12:11 PM
  #28
Trained
One thing I did notice, which is so fantastic, is he is not shaking his head, he is avoiding the bit as he is being jabbed, but his reaction is to curl up, I didn't see one head shake.
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    08-04-2012, 12:17 PM
  #29
Yearling
I'm definitely not half as experienced as the people here, and I agree that Weezilla's post was absolutely fantastic. I just wanted to add something that could help when you're riding him, although it might already have been mentioned.

I was stuck, during a clinic, on a horse who was in a fairly harsh bit and was very forward and incredibly high headed. I, being used to the horse who I trained, had only a slight idea how to control him.. since Major is the horse who, with a slight movement of your outside fingers, puts his head down in a nice frame. In order to get Whisper (the horse in question) to get his head down, I had to constantly half half, and as counterproductive as it sounded to me, I had to make him go more forward with my legs.

By the end of that week, I had him trotting and even cantering in a nice frame.. when previously, he was high headed and I was always pretty anxious for canter work since he enjoyed running off and bucking.

When I put what I learned to the test on Major, I was absolutely thrilled. There was no change really in his frame, but it only took a teensy bit of leg to get him engaging his hind end, which is something that usually requires a lot of effort.

Also, I once rode Major in side reins, but they were left loose and I only lightly played with them if I needed to.

Anyways, I agree with everything said here about the hindend engagement and driving him into the bit... it makes such a big difference in any horse. :)
     
    08-04-2012, 01:10 PM
  #30
Trained
I am not a pro, but I will give my two cents anyway. I do not see any engagement but a horse in "frame." I used to think my horse was nice and engaged but then I realized she was put in a frame and was going slow, not collected. Just because it looks like the neck is flexing doesn't mean their back is engaged.

Things I've learned to look for in a truly engaged horse are one) reaching into the bit. While riding in contact, if you loosen your reins, your horse should strive to maintain that contact without loosing impulsion. Just because you start to release [slowly, don't "drop" him] doesn't mean your horse should fall apart. He should be able to stretch into some long and low work. Two) nice long strides. Slow does not equal collected. You can see in the video how he is shuffling along. You want his hind legs to be stretching forward underneath him. And third) make sure his neck is "breaking" at the poll! You can see where his neck is bulging out several inches behind his ears. His neck is not a nice arch created when his hind end is pushing himself up and forward but a man-handled imitation.

The best thing you can do is stop focusing on his head. He's a giraffe, so do what you need to prevent him breaking your nose, but for the most part, got on him and push him forward. You need the forward momentum before you can even begin to expect him to engage. You need to be solid and steady when you're riding, the worst thing you can do to a horse that throws his head in the air is bounce around on his face and back. Use your core muscles, make sure you are setting the tempo of the stride.

I do not see side-reins helping this horse at all, they are just encouraging him to suck back. If your trainer thinks this is how he should be "learning," you may need to look for a second opinion. Save up for one lesson with a really great, top notch trainer in your area and see what they have to say. Just remember the two most important things are steady and forward. Good luck.
     

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