Is Cinny starting to engage his hind? - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
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post #31 of 40 Old 08-04-2012, 01:14 PM
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Try German or Vienna side reins instead of the type you're using right now.
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post #32 of 40 Old 08-04-2012, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Cinnys Whinny View Post
Trust me when I ride, he still tries to throw his nose in the air. His upside down neck is 8 years in the making, his high nose is 8 years of habit. The lines are only for building muscle, but I do not ride with any gadget. I think if we were trying to force a frame we would be tempted to put a german martingale on him or something else to that effect but we don't.

Don't get me wrong, I did pay attention to and respect what you have said and it has brought up some more questions for my trainer. A lot of what everyone here says makes a lot of sense and I will be incorporating it into my questions/discussions with my trainer.

I value and respect everyone's opinion. :)

Just wondering if throwing his nose in the air is not just about the muscle under his neck? Could he have a teeth issue or a back issue (both can be causes of a such behaviour with his head)? I would only use a running martigale as a safety measure for myself with a horse that throws its head up as they come into action then, but they are hopeless at teaching a horse not to do it. If you get your body right (I have Ride With Your Mind lessons which are all about correcting the rider) then the horse can move into the correct way of going, as I have often found that I am usually the problem Hope that helps
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post #33 of 40 Old 08-04-2012, 02:12 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Clava View Post

Just wondering if throwing his nose in the air is not just about the muscle under his neck? Could he have a teeth issue or a back issue (both can be causes of a such behaviour with his head)? I would only use a running martigale as a safety measure for myself with a horse that throws its head up as they come into action then, but they are hopeless at teaching a horse not to do it. If you get your body right (I have Ride With Your Mind lessons which are all about correcting the rider) then the horse can move into the correct way of going, as I have often found that I am usually the problem Hope that helps
Very good questions.

He used to grind his teeth very badly. As a result my vet checks his teeth about every three to four months. Most of the previous grinding habit as well as throwing his head up and shaking his head was previously determined to be a result of ulcers and over active acid pumps in his stomach. These have been addressed, treated and maintained with the help of my vet. What remains is habit and the incorrect muscling that it caused.. It is slowly getting better.

For those wondering about my bit, he is currently in a Happy Mouth double jointed roller with loose rings. Don't worry it is the new style not the style that was recalled. I have also had him in a sprenger wh, korsteel double link copper snaffle, a fulmer and a plain loose ring. He likes the happy mouth the best.
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post #34 of 40 Old 08-04-2012, 02:29 PM
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To me, he still looks very front heavy. That's just what I see.

Sorry didn't read this entire thread, only the OP and the first few comments.
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post #35 of 40 Old 08-04-2012, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Weezilla View Post
Hi there! I'm new here but I'm an old DQ. I'll be frank and to the point about what I see here.

Cinny is moving front to back, not back to front. This is caused by the extremely tight sidereins, as in one foot too tight.
I thought you were exaggerating, then I watched the video, poor boy it gave me cramps watching it, now I can see what to tight is.

No advice to add other than what you already have been given, and doesn't everyone do the Ter rrrot thing? How very strange.
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post #36 of 40 Old 08-04-2012, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Cinnys Whinny View Post
I do ride him and do laterals but we lunge too as prescribed by my trainer. He does have more stretch than he appears. With the side reins at that setting his can actually reach down beyond his knees and stretch forward quite a bit too, enough to almost straighten his neck.

My trainer says he's not over flexing, he's reaching for bit contact in the bridle and that his head dropping thus is normal for his stage of dressage training and it's okay. At a schumaker clinic I went to at the beginning of the year, he said it's normal for horses who are developing the want to reach for the bridle do this too and it's encouraged and the early stages.

So now I'm confused.
That was painfull to watch and it looks uncomfortable. He is way behind the vertical and it got worse the lower his head was. He needs the side reins way longer so he can stretch and reach for the bit with his poll the highest point of the neck. With longer reins then you can push him to step forward and reach under himself. Being held back ;ike that it isn't possible. Just my opinion though.
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post #37 of 40 Old 08-05-2012, 12:49 AM
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Sorry mate, but I don't like this at all. There is no engagement there at all, he is shuffling around on a small circle, getting hit in the mouth by the side reins every stride. His back is not engaged, it is as solid as an ironing board and there is no bend whatsoever through his body. It is very 10 year old child making their pony 'pretty for pony club'.
Watching the video, I have an overwhelming desire to reach through the screen, undo those side reins and drive him forward. At the moment, if he were going any slower he'd be going backwards. There is no benefit in this lunging at all.
As for your trainer, is this the same trainer who told you to bump your leg every stride to increase reaction to the driving aids? I'd take what they say with a pinch of salt. Sorry.

Cinny needs to be sent forwards. Yes, some form of contact with the bridle is preferable than nothing, but far too tight side reins are not working for him.
As Anebel suggested, a German bungy type set up would be more beneficial to this horse at this point in time. He is currently being punished every time he tries to reach for contact and by continuing, you will train him to back off the bit and sit behind the vertical no matter how forward you have him.

Get him out on a big circle, at least 20m, and drive him. He NEEDS to go forward. He cannot release his back until he has an opportunity to go forward.

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post #38 of 40 Old 08-10-2012, 06:52 PM
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Question for you. Standing at the halt, if you stand at Cinny's shoulder and pick up the reins as if your were mounted, does he soften to the contact, or come above or duck it? Same question for if you try to walk him around that way, holding reins as if you were mounted?

You just have to see your don't have to like it.
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post #39 of 40 Old 08-11-2012, 04:02 AM
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I wrote a big, long reply .. but I just thought I'd ask ..

When were his teeth last done (I know you say every few months) and what was found? Sharp points? Ulcers? Deviated teeth? Do they use power tools?
When was the saddle last fitted by a professional saddle fitter?
When did he last have body work?
And same for farrier/feet work.

I would dearly love to see photos of his feet (surprising how many "issues" are feet related!), and a photo of him standing (one of each side, and one from behind). I'd love to see him work with no sidereins on, to really get a good idea of this head throwing business.

I think there is more to it .. it sounds (and looks) like he is sore/uncomfortable somewhere.
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post #40 of 40 Old 08-11-2012, 10:08 AM
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My take is that he is not engaging - he is not even tracking up.

I agree about things already said and my take would be to invest in a proper lunge cavesson so that you are not on his mouth with the line. (This could well be making his resistance worse as it is a very strong form of control.) I would loosen the side reins by at least four holes each side and have him in a very soft bit.
With the lunge cavesson I would use two lines one attached to each outside ring on the noseband of the cavesson and bring a line through the stirrups which should be tied under him. The line over his hocks will cause him to engage more. At the moment he is not tracking up and he needs to learn to go forward at walk and trot because he is not tracking up.
Once he is tracking up he will have to lower his head and work through his back.
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