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Craptastic dressage at Danish Championships

This is a discussion on Craptastic dressage at Danish Championships within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category
  • Overflexion in a horses neck
  • Danish dressage federation response to rollkur 2013

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    06-18-2013, 07:32 AM
  #91
Foal
"Rollkur*or*hyperflexion of the horse's neck*is a practice in*equestrianism*defined as "flexion of the horse's neck achieved through aggressive force" and is banned by the world governing body, the*International Federation for Equestrian Sports(FEI). The FEI recognises a distinction between rollkur and the riding of the horse in a deep outline not achieved by force."

That is the first paragraph on the Wikipedia page for Rollkur. I can see why hyperextension may be of benefit to stretching muscles as some are saying but if this is the case why not do it on the ground rather than with a double bridle, I don't stretch my muscles out for running while actually running, I do it before or after to feel the benefit.
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    06-18-2013, 09:42 AM
  #92
Foal
Adding further, one must take note of horses that have been ridden ldr/hyperflexed and then are trained to reach for the rider's contact instead of backing off it when applied. It's a pain in the neck, literally. The horses have immense trouble reaching for contact and remaining on the vertical instead of dipping noses behind and moving round yet far from swinging through.


To say you can see some success with the method of ldr is like saying you can see some success with anything else. I see a similarity to how people teach their horses to "dance" by whipping the horse while it is confined in cross ties, and keep whipping them until they prance in place on cue. They have poor rhythm and are tense, the movement is not from good training but from only the horse's genetic potential. Imagine, with a sensitive horse, you don't need to whip it so much to get that result. All needing to be done might be to give it a few taps or spook it a few times.

Yeah, this is a shallow post.
     
    06-18-2013, 09:45 AM
  #93
Weanling
For what it is worth, this is from a friend who does dissections: ".....a post on our findings on a horse dissection. I have attached a FB site where some of the pics can be viewed. Warning they are graphic. This was my first one and therefore I did not have anything to compare it too. I will however be attending another one in October. The horse was a showjumper turned dressage horse. Firstly, when we viewed the parotid gland there was clear indentation of which from a tight closed throat-lash. There was also unusual muscle development in this horses neck, the trapezius had an extension which joined it on the Brachiocephalic. When we got down to the deep muscles we put the horse into rolkur position and then compared it with the horses nose in front of the vertical with poll high. In rolkur, The Nuchal ligament had no where to go but to roll to the side of the horses neck and trachea was blocked which would result in the horse struggling for air. The spinal cord had amazing amount of pressure on it and the C2/C2 appeared to displace. In the other position everything seemed to be where it should be. When the horse had an open gullet there was no restriction of the air ways. The nuchal ligament returned to the top of the neck. This was the first warmblood dressage horse that the presenter had dissected, she did say there was some differences compared with the other horses in which indicated the horse had been worked in a closed posture or drawreins."
     
    06-18-2013, 09:53 AM
  #94
Foal
Thanks for that equitate, always so much better when science is involved! I have to say none of your post surprised me, just by looking at the horse in the OPs pics, surely length of time spent in an unnatural position for any animal will have knock on effects on the body.
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    06-18-2013, 10:03 AM
  #95
Banned
Equitate, interesting dissection post, however I have to ask, the part where the students flexed the horses neck surely can't be taken seriously as the body acts differently when dead than when alive, surely not? Just an observation.
     
    06-18-2013, 11:02 AM
  #96
Super Moderator
I'm a bit amused by the suggestion that only dressage riders are used to high powered super fit horses. I spent all of my active riding life including working with horses that were being aimed at eventing and on a yard where we had (fox) hunters that were expected to stay at the head of the field all day at least twice a week. Nothing was under 16.2 and none of them needed working in rolkurr to hold them or have them manageable - I would say the opposite as having a horse like that is more likely to result in it being heavy on the forehand and develop the tendency to get behind the bit and have its nose on its chest - and if you've ever ridden a horse that learnt to bolt off by doing that you would know that there is no stopping them.

::: Sustainable Dressage - Rollkur - How And Why Not? - Why Not? :::

Equitate - this is the article I took those diagrams off

ROLLKUR (wrong)vs Biomechanics (correct) & SADDLING/Rope Halters Good and Bad | midwestnha

How can anyone possibly reject the 'monkey see monkey do' syndrome?
Sorry but impressionable people style themselves on these 'professionals' and hold them up as role models regardless of what their trainers might tell them.
I've spent a lifetime around 'professionals' and can assure you that the tactics many of them use leaves little to be desired. For many of them they see 'abuse' simply as a means to the end (winning) because that's all that matters to them. Its just that the smart ones know how to conceal it better.
     
    06-18-2013, 11:50 AM
  #97
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee    
I'm a bit amused by the suggestion that only dressage riders are used to high powered super fit horses. I spent all of my active riding life including working with horses that were being aimed at eventing and on a yard where we had (fox) hunters that were expected to stay at the head of the field all day at least twice a week. Nothing was under 16.2 and none of them needed working in rolkurr to hold them or have them manageable - I would say the opposite as having a horse like that is more likely to result in it being heavy on the forehand and develop the tendency to get behind the bit and have its nose on its chest - and if you've ever ridden a horse that learnt to bolt off by doing that you would know that there is no stopping them.

::: Sustainable Dressage - Rollkur - How And Why Not? - Why Not? :::

.
One of my favourite websites
     
    06-18-2013, 11:55 AM
  #98
Trained
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U264...e_gdata_player

Just as a positive note.....that's how it CAN be done!
     
    06-18-2013, 12:40 PM
  #99
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by deserthorsewoman    
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U264...e_gdata_player

Just as a positive note.....that's how it CAN be done!
I remember that pair--- I liked and didn't like it. Those moments that weren't too seamless, however, I didn't see him being brutal or restraining to force the movements. I get the impression that he knew the horse, and wasn't going to sacrifice the horse's freedom of movement to make the performance look tight and clean. Imho.

I like SRSV as the prime example of devotion to classical dressage in all its splendor.
     
    06-18-2013, 01:35 PM
  #100
Trained
He was NEVER brutal or restraining. Ahlerich wasn't an easy horse at all.
But good enough to win just about anything possible, national, European, world championships, Olympics. And not only once, and also individual AND team.
His daughter is following in his footsteps, in Eventing, a discipline he originally came from also, btw.
He has done training DVD'S also, in one he says to ride to make the horse proud of himself. To help him( the horse) achieve perfection.
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