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Craptastic dressage at Danish Championships

This is a discussion on Craptastic dressage at Danish Championships within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category
  • Dressage actuality

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    06-16-2013, 11:03 AM
  #11
Yearling
Every sport has it's goods and bads.

All i'm going to say without offending people.
     
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    06-16-2013, 11:38 AM
  #12
Foal
Ugh, disgusting! Breaks my heart to see this.

@above:
There is resistance... Not much though. I flex my horses sometimes, but not to these extremes. And not so high, usually lower and more through the back. When you flex a horse this high, the front end disconnects completely from the back end. You'll get plenty of front leg action, but the hind legs do nothing.
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    06-16-2013, 05:59 PM
  #13
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Four Seasons    
When you flex a horse this high, the front end disconnects completely from the back end. You'll get plenty of front leg action, but the hind legs do nothing.
THERE. My first Equitation class this year had one rider who brought this to every ring, Hunter and English Eq. Without a doubt the most disgusting thing I have ever seen, a horse with a broomstick stiff tail and a head as high as it could go---but wait!--- also tucked as much as possible without the horse needing its spine broken in half. It looked like some kind of sea serpent. There were d**ned good riders in that small class, I didn't expect to get in the top 4, but somehow this particular rider surpassed those riders who at least kept steady paces with some relaxation. (I remember feeling sick the next show date at these grounds, when an extremely talented Dressage rider on a similarly talented stallion lost out to a hyperflexed, hollow-backed horse. The young rider was silent as the grave, profoundly disappointed.)

I think several classes passed before something must have happened with the judge, and at the end she stopped us and had a bit check. Surprising that the rider had an illegal bit, huh? The politics in these kinds of shows, where it's the judge and you rather than you and the clock/penalties, is indeed craptastic. That horse was yanked on, pulled around, and reared multiple times in each class, once almost falling over while the judge simply told the rider "Thank you" many times to indicate that she should stop the exercise and return to the rail.
     
    06-16-2013, 11:56 PM
  #14
Trained
I tend to agree with kayty. How many people on this thread have honestly ridden a horse with that much blood and movement? It's easy to throw stones but IMO to get into that saddle is harder than it may appear and yes, sometimes the training is not always pretty. Train for tomorrow, ride for tomorrow. I actually disagree more with the folks who ask the horse to be too high with the poll, who have a sunken back, a hard mouth and a horse the length of a small bus.
Some of the harsher flexions are maybe not strictly needed, but a deeper neck is actually an essential part to the training. And so is a supple horse.


Imo it is a bit on an agenda and fueled by ignorant media that the rolkur stuff is always touted as evil... Some important people don't like some riders...
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    06-17-2013, 12:00 AM
  #15
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
I tend to agree with kayty. How many people on this thread have honestly ridden a horse with that much blood and movement? It's easy to throw stones but IMO to get into that saddle is harder than it may appear and yes, sometimes the training is not always pretty. Train for tomorrow, ride for tomorrow. I actually disagree more with the folks who ask the horse to be too high with the poll, who have a sunken back, a hard mouth and a horse the length of a small bus.
Some of the harsher flexions are maybe not strictly needed, but a deeper neck is actually an essential part to the training. And so is a supple horse.


Imo it is a bit on an agenda and fueled by ignorant media that the rolkur stuff is always touted as evil... Some important people don't like some riders...
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I'm raising my hand I've never ridden a horse with that much blood and movement and probably wouldn't know how after I used the step ladder to climb on
     
    06-17-2013, 12:06 AM
  #16
Trained
If this training measure has to be used on the show grounds, warm up or not, something is amiss with the work done at home.
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    06-17-2013, 12:19 AM
  #17
Yearling
The poll is traditionally the highest point of the horse who is collected, and its traditionally this way for a reason. The nose should actually be just infront of the vertical, not behind in the least.

Long and low is good for training, not arguing that.

I did have the privilege of riding a Grand Prix horse when his owner was pregnant. He was a hard animal to manage, I agree to that. I couldn't make him to half the things his owner could. However, she had trained him from day 1 in a snaffle without the use of any other leather outside of a bridle and saddle, and he moved correctly. With her, at least.

Rolkur is the devil.

Go look at old military dressage pictures. The horse will be highest at the poll, head slightly infront of the vertical and the front weight bearing leg will be squarely under the horse (as aposed to at an angle). This is a horse who is off the forehand and the leg does not have to be so behind him to carry weight since the hind end is doing it for him.

Ill post a picture here in a minute...

But this type of over flexed training is simply not needed to obtain good results.
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    06-17-2013, 12:39 AM
  #18
Yearling
Head infront of the vertical


Taken right from the Vienna school of riding


Head infront of the vertical... And no one should be telling them they are wrong...

The Levade, which is the most complete form of collection there is


Head infront of the vertical, polls the highest point.

You can not obtain complete collection with an over flexed horse. Try imagining the stallion in the last photo performing The Levade with more flexion. He wouldn't be able to balance himself for the move and he would fall down onto the forehand.
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    06-17-2013, 12:47 AM
  #19
Super Moderator
I do not disagree with the head in front of the vertical and Rolkuer being harsh, but those photos are just a moment in time. They don't tell you how long the horse was overflexed. If you look at what many Western trainers do, they do some pretty powerful flexions, too. A photo taken at the extreme of the flexion might make it look like they were abusing their horses, too, but in actuality, they are just moving through that position, not riding the horse on and on there.
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    06-17-2013, 04:58 AM
  #20
Trained
There is no debate that the poll should be the highest point with nose slightly in front of the vertical. BUT, to develop muscles, suppleness, balance and fitness it is necessary to place the horse in different positions. Again I am not arguing for rolkur, but for the misconception that a horse should be ridden poll high or long and low at all times with no 'grey areas'. If a horse is worked only in one or two positions, it will become stiff and often unbalanced.
There are certainly times that putting a horse behind the vertical is called for. And no that does not mean hauling on it with the curb rein, but inviting it to come deeper with a soft hand.

As a side note, many of the horses depicted in the old military drawings show right, hollow backs and tension through the neck. Dressage will always change, there is never going to be one absolute way that every horse should travel (within reason).
The SRS and grand prix competitor photos - remember that these horses have the strength behind to carry themselves poll high in front of the vertical. They do not start like this!
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