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Double Bridles

This is a discussion on Double Bridles within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category

    View Poll Results: Double Bridles
    They are a great teaching aid 22 51.16%
    I use them all the time 0 0%
    They are unneccesary and cruel 4 9.30%
    Don't have an opinon 17 39.53%
    Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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        11-18-2012, 03:44 PM
      #91
    Weanling
    First, you tell us that he needs help from a double to straighten him. We tell you a double can't do that, it's for refinement. Then you tell us he's a schoolmaster and that it is for refinement. We ask why a schoolmaster can't go straight in a snaffle, and you tell us he's had the training, but he's an older boy who needs the double to help him get the right muscles to achieve the movements again in the snaffle. We tell you again that the double can't fix body issues, and say that if he's an older lad finding it hard why don't you take it easy on him, and give him an easier life with a bit of bute if needed. Then you tell us you bute him already when he's sore. We look at each other and shake our heads, wondering why the hell an older horse, who finds showing stressful and has obviously achieved these movements when younger but is now finding basic straightness difficult and is occasionally needing bute after a hard ride(something I never give to a horse I intend to ride, if they need bute to work they shouldn't be working in my opinion, light hacking at absolute maximum) is being put under the pressure of a double bridle!

    And you wonder why I accuse you of contradicting yourself.
         
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        11-18-2012, 04:15 PM
      #92
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minstrel    
    First, you tell us that he needs help from a double to straighten him. The double bridle lets me focus on getting him and me in the right position. I can push him forward more and therefore he can move more correctly. We tell you a double can't do that, it's for refinement. Getting him to move more correctly is refinement. Then you tell us he's a schoolmaster and that it is for refinement. There you go. We ask why a schoolmaster can't go straight in a snaffle, (he can..and does...it's just harder for me to get him there) and you tell us he's had the training, (he does) but he's an older boy who needs the double to help him get the right muscles to achieve the movements again in the snaffle. (we can do all the same movements in the snaffle...just refining them...and by doing that working on more strengthing of correct muscles) We tell you again that the double can't fix body issues, and say that if he's an older lad finding it hard (He isn't finding it hard...actually doing quite well.) why don't you take it easy on him, and give him an easier life with a bit of bute if needed. Then you tell us you bute him already when he's sore. (My point being that yes he is an older horse and there is nothing wrong with giving a horse bute when they show any signs of soreness...to an extent. If he needed it on a regular base to keep going then yes there is an issue. If he gets in on the rare occasion he is sore...not a big deal.) We look at each other and shake our heads, wondering why the hell an older horse, who finds showing stressful (really? I have said that he is getting better about it. Of course he is going to find it stressful at first...as do I.) and has obviously achieved these movements when younger but is now finding basic straightness (basic straightness...not really sure how you define that. But really he doesn't find basic straightness an issue...when going along and asking for First Level movements he is fine. Asking for a medium canter however he can throw his haunches to the inside. However we have fixed that.) difficult and is occasionally needing bute after a hard ride(something I never give to a horse I intend to ride, if they need bute to work they shouldn't be working in my opinion, light hacking at absolute maximum) (we obviously differ in our opinions on bute see below) is being put under the pressure of a double bridle!

    And you wonder why I accuse you of contradicting yourself.

    So I take it to understand you saying that any horse that needs bute ever should not be ridden except in a light hack? If I'm wrong, sorry. But that's what I read.

    But I agree with Dr Black, former president of the American Association of Equine Practitioners.

    "Dr. Black has found that bute can be especially helpful for the kind of horse he affectionately calls “the old campaigner,” who might have minor aches and pains that might be associated with such conditions as arthritis.

    We need those seasoned horses in the industry, there’s no question about that,” he says. “They’re the horses that teach our amateurs and youth kids how to ride. I’m 58 years old and often have to have a little Advil in order to comfortably ride my cutting horses.

    “With a standard bute dose, you’re not supplying enough analgesic to make a horse that’s really hurting – or injured –sound,” he continues. “But you are providing a therapeutic level for any minor soreness they might have and helping them to perform pain-free. Non steroidal medications, like bute or Banamine, can be very therapeutic in those cases. They help our horses, and that’s important to all of us.”


    Now what's wrong with that? Also keeping in mind that again my horse doesn't need a regular dose of bute to keep on going...just every now and again to be comfortable.


    And also...sometimes across the internet just through a forum..and even in real life face-to-face...sometimes someone will say something...meaning one thing yet another person will take that as meaning something completely different. They both understand and aim for the same thing yet there is too much mis-communication. Terminology and personal definitions can mess things up. Most people understand this....
         
        11-18-2012, 04:31 PM
      #93
    Weanling
    Again you're contradicting yourself, in your highlighted reply to my post. Refinement and correction ARE NOT THE SAME, and 'Getting him to move more correctly' is NOT refinement, it is CORRECTION. And tbh that seems to be where your whole misunderstanding of everything we have said is coming from. And if you can't understand that you sure as hell shouldn't be riding in a double bridle!

    And there is a reason bute is a banned substance in competition - it is an analgesic, which can mask health problems. Yes, in normal doses not large ones, but it can still mask problems, and it is an illegal drug at any affiliated competition. For an old pony diddling round with beginners on? It's the same as light hacking, it asks very little of the horse. But riding at any level, asking much of the horse, if it needs regular bute then you are masking a pain issue, whether its arthritis or not. And I've had an arthritic horse, there are better, longer lasting and competition legal treatments for a horse which is kinder than masking a problem with bute.

    That's my tuppence, and to be honest it's probably wasted words since you haven't listened to anyone else - but I do feel sorry for your poor old lad.
         
        11-18-2012, 04:49 PM
      #94
    Weanling
    Kat, I do see your point - that your horse has improved when you ride him in the double. And how could that be bad, right? In my mind, what causes me unease is not that you have used the double and found it helpful. It is my worry that your education may be compromised if you allow yourself to rely on equipment rather working through the evasions you will encounter with exercises, good eyes on the round and a simple snaffle. This is clearly a step in your education. I just hope that you listen to everyone's concerns and during this offseason, work on those crucial fundamental basics in a snaffle- your seat and aids (longe lessons at least twice a week), acceptance of the aids, straightness, thoroughness, clear balanced straight transitions. And maybe you can lobby the owner to inject now instead of later-the more comfortable he is, the less he will evade, and will make your work much more productive.

    The training versus refining question in theory works, but in the upper level world (solid 2ndL and up IMO) those 2nd L basics are there for you to utilize in order to strengthen the horse. This isn't accomplished with a double. The double can so easily mask holes in training, but not for long and never to an experienced eye. For what its worth, and that isn't much considering that we don't know each other, you seem to be dedicated and to have some talent if you were showing 2L successfully at recognized shows. The jump from 2L to 3L can be difficult if those basics aren't there - its put your money where your mouth is time, and those SIs, HIs, TOHs, and transitions within the gaits better be utilized correctly or you wont get your changes and half passes.

    I wish you luck, my dear. Lobby for those injections and keep working on getting your basics better. When showtime rolls around, you will be sitting pretty!

    I hope this didn't come off as too preachy, but I'm an old instructor and sometimes I do go on...
         
        11-18-2012, 05:56 PM
      #95
    Foal
    @ minstrel: I'm sorry but we just don't see eye to eye on these problems at all and you don't seem to get what I am saying. Especially with the bute issue. Again you refuse to see my point that for an older horse who can on occasion show some soreness...not limping around or anything but just showing some reluctance to do some harder movements at very occasional times especially after jumping which we don't do very much of (which we do not immediately jump to as he's being bad...but just give him the benefit of the doubt) that giving them a small dose of bute to make him comfortable for a few days while not working or showing him is not a bad thing. I really don't understand where you get that is wrong. I'm sorry maybe I'm the person in the wrong here but I just don't see it.
         
        11-18-2012, 06:33 PM
      #96
    Weanling
    Wow. I started my last post 2 hrs before I finished it and only now have time to come back-much has happened since!

    Kat, you half-lease and ride 3-5x/wk schooling 2nd through 3rd L, correct? And this horse on his other days jumps? This coming 22 year old horse? Who was sold by a lesson program for soundness issues, correct? Have you ever owned a horse, Kat, or have you only taken lessons and leased? I ask because if you've never had full responsibility, physically and financially, for and old campaigner, especially a lesson horse, you would realize that this is a work overload and the old man is being pushed. Indeed, to squeeze every last ounce out of him to make money for his owner.

    This should make you think. What kind of horseman do you want to be? I prefer to think you simply haven't thought of these things. We see schoolies going round and round doing their thing and don't think much about the workload in terms of the horse, only how it affects us. If you choose to come back here with a rant on how well its all working, Ill throw in my top hat.

    The inconsistencies in your responses and the nonsensical poll questions point to your lack of experience, and more specifically to your owner/trainer's lack of ability.

    What do stretching, deep loops and circles do? Really? You are not the rider you think you are if you don't see the value in the core basics. Find a trainer who can teach you how very important these are. You will be glad you did.
         
        11-18-2012, 06:56 PM
      #97
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Weezilla    
    Wow. I started my last post 2 hrs before I finished it and only now have time to come back-much has happened since!

    Kat, you half-lease and ride 3-5x/wk schooling 2nd through 3rd L, correct? And this horse on his other days jumps? This coming 22 year old horse? Who was sold by a lesson program for soundness issues, correct? Have you ever owned a horse, Kat, or have you only taken lessons and leased? I ask because if you've never had full responsibility, physically and financially, for and old campaigner, especially a lesson horse, you would realize that this is a work overload and the old man is being pushed. Indeed, to squeeze every last ounce out of him to make money for his owner.

    This should make you think. What kind of horseman do you want to be? I prefer to think you simply haven't thought of these things. We see schoolies going round and round doing their thing and don't think much about the workload in terms of the horse, only how it affects us. If you choose to come back here with a rant on how well its all working, Ill throw in my top hat.

    The inconsistencies in your responses and the nonsensical poll questions point to your lack of experience, and more specifically to your owner/trainer's lack of ability.

    What do stretching, deep loops and circles do? Really? You are not the rider you think you are if you don't see the value in the core basics. Find a trainer who can teach you how very important these are. You will be glad you did.

    Pushed?? No the horse is in very good physical shape actually...and the "jumping" is truly popping him over a cross-rail about 5 times before end of a ride. (There was only one time in which it caused an issue.) Which I don't do very much because I don't care for it. He is 21 btw...not that this is much difference. I have one lesson a week, sometimes two like before a show or if I didn't have one the week before, and then I ride him on my own a couple times. He is always warmed up and cooled down properly. As to him being sold for soundness issues, he was rehabilitated and he is absolutely fine. It wasn't a chronic thing, but you know how lesson programs are. If he was being pushed too much, believe me I'd see it. He's not that stoic. I don't even ride him day after day without giving him a break...it's more like every other day...sometimes less.

    Also on his physical condition: every person that learns of his age is shocked. He doesn't look or act 21. Again I contribute this to good care and the fact he wasn't trained until he was 8. I care very much about this horse; and since I'm the practically only one who rides him (there is one younger girl who rides him one day a week) I do think about what the workload is doing to him. For one thing, if he were to break down I would have no horse to ride...and that's my own selfish reason. Plus I care very much for Louis. And to the statement he is just making money for the owner...she doesn't make a whole lot of money on him. If honestly anything.

    And I do see what stretching and circles do...I do them every time I ride when I warm up. But what would be the point of me riding around and around like that? That would only apply if my boy would actually get anything out of that besides an extremely easy ride. That's my point.
         
        11-18-2012, 07:54 PM
      #98
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by katdressagegirl    
    Pushed?? No the horse is in very good physical shape actually...and the "jumping" is truly popping him over a cross-rail about 5 times before end of a ride. (There was only one time in which it caused an issue.) Which I don't do very much because I don't care for it. He is 21 btw...not that this is much difference. I have one lesson a week, sometimes two like before a show or if I didn't have one the week before, and then I ride him on my own a couple times. He is always warmed up and cooled down properly. As to him being sold for soundness issues, he was rehabilitated and he is absolutely fine. It wasn't a chronic thing, but you know how lesson programs are. If he was being pushed too much, believe me I'd see it. He's not that stoic. I don't even ride him day after day without giving him a break...it's more like every other day...sometimes less.

    Also on his physical condition: every person that learns of his age is shocked. He doesn't look or act 21. Again I contribute this to good care and the fact he wasn't trained until he was 8. I care very much about this horse; and since I'm the practically only one who rides him (there is one younger girl who rides him one day a week) I do think about what the workload is doing to him. For one thing, if he were to break down I would have no horse to ride...and that's my own selfish reason. Plus I care very much for Louis. And to the statement he is just making money for the owner...she doesn't make a whole lot of money on him. If honestly anything.

    And I do see what stretching and circles do...I do them every time I ride when I warm up. But what would be the point of me riding around and around like that? That would only apply if my boy would actually get anything out of that besides an extremely easy ride. That's my point.
    I give up.
    minstrel and jaydee like this.
         
        11-18-2012, 08:11 PM
      #99
    Weanling
    [QUOTE=katdressagegirl;1763292
    And I do see what stretching and circles do...I do them every time I ride when I warm up. But what would be the point of me riding around and around like that? That would only apply if my boy would actually get anything out of that besides an extremely easy ride. That's my point.[/QUOTE]

    Gotta come back to say this. With this statement you have proved your cluelessness. WOW

    What for the love of all that is holy do you think Ingrid Klimke, Uta Graf, Carl Hester, Charlotte Dejardins and the other greats do every single day? The tricks? No! They work on the basics! Head to desk.

    Done now.
         
        11-18-2012, 08:18 PM
      #100
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Weezilla    
    Gotta come back to say this. With this statement you have proved your cluelessness. WOW

    What for the love of all that is holy do you think Ingrid Klimke, Uta Graf, Carl Hester, Charlotte Dejardins and the other greats do every single day? The tricks? No! They work on the basics! Head to desk.

    Done now.
    Yep.
    Wouldn't it be nice to just do the 'fun stuff' every ride?!!
    I spend more time on transitions and improving the quality of paces on the circle, than ANYTHING else under saddle.
    I might pop in some SI/HI/pirouettes here and there to work on other parts of the body, but overall, it's transitions and circles. That is what improves a horse, not tricks.
         

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