Double Bridles - Page 12 - The Horse Forum
View Poll Results: Double Bridles
They are a great teaching aid 22 51.16%
I use them all the time 0 0%
They are unneccesary and cruel 4 9.30%
Don't have an opinon 17 39.53%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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post #111 of 155 Old 11-19-2012, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by katdressagegirl View Post
*growls in frustration*

I spend a ton of time on circles...just not on long-and-low stretching circles! Unless he needed it...or I was warming him up...or we are working on stretchy circles. That was my point. Not that I didn't use circles! Gosh. -_-
I think you are missing the point entirely -.- At his age stretchy circles should be an every ride occurance.
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post #112 of 155 Old 11-19-2012, 12:48 PM
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I wont give up if you are honestly struggling with the responses on this thread. Can't be bothered to communicate with know it all whining.

Louis is competing 3L, right? He's doing half pass and single changes. So how do you get 4 tempis? You work on straightening and strengthening and "rubber banding" the canter. Shoulder fore, SI, SI to straight to SI, leg yield at canter (yes!) etc etc to strengthen and straighten and gain more control of the hind end. To maintain relaxation during these strengthening exercises, you stretch him on circles and loops and ride your rhythm. Just a quick example of how crucial the basics are.

Half pass? The most incredible HPes - Ravel's trot HP is who I picture - are controlled yet elastic and rhythmic. You don't get great HPs by schooling HPes. You get them by schooling THE BASICS. SI, HI, LY, HALT, CHANGE OF PACE, UBERSTREICHEN. It always comes back to this. I'll say again that your trainer should have been teaching you this.
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post #113 of 155 Old 11-19-2012, 04:17 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Weezilla View Post
I wont give up if you are honestly struggling with the responses on this thread. Can't be bothered to communicate with know it all whining.

Louis is competing 3L, right? He's doing half pass and single changes. So how do you get 4 tempis? You work on straightening and strengthening and "rubber banding" the canter. Shoulder fore, SI, SI to straight to SI, leg yield at canter (yes!) etc etc to strengthen and straighten and gain more control of the hind end. To maintain relaxation during these strengthening exercises, you stretch him on circles and loops and ride your rhythm. Just a quick example of how crucial the basics are.

Half pass? The most incredible HPes - Ravel's trot HP is who I picture - are controlled yet elastic and rhythmic. You don't get great HPs by schooling HPes. You get them by schooling THE BASICS. SI, HI, LY, HALT, CHANGE OF PACE, UBERSTREICHEN. It always comes back to this. I'll say again that your trainer should have been teaching you this.

I am working Second Level with Louis btw, not Third. And yes I actually do all the aforementioned things with him...last time I worked him I warmed him up long and low, gradually picking him up into more collection as per usual. Then we worked on trot: shoulder-in, mediums, half-pass, shoulder-in to haunches out. All these things we have been working on...he's good at them all. Worked alot of mixing things up so he doesn't anticipate anything. Working on being relaxed and consistent in both directions. Threw in some stretchy circles before walk break. Worked on walk-canter and some canter-walk transitions on circles and on the track .Then half-pass canter, canter leg yields, counter-canter, and more transitions. Then walk break. Then popped him over a little cross rail a couple of times...then cooled him out. This was a typical ride for us; no instructor. There are other things I do in my various rides...work on something a little different everytime. Lasted around an hour maybe a little more. He wasn't sweaty, just a little warm. Wasn't sore the next day or anything. Anything in that you feel the need to pick apart?

I guess I am just not communicating to you people that I'm not just going to ride around with him for an hour just doing stretchy long and low stuff. I'm not saying there isn't a time and place for that but honestly he wouldn't get anything out of it. He's relaxed when we work, fairly supple as well.

I'm not trying to argue with you people but when you keep on saying things that I can easily see do not apply in this situation it's frustrating. I can see your points, and if I really rode like you think I do, then I would be one of you.

DRESSAGE, n.: the passionate pursuit of perfection by the obsessively imperfect -Author Unknown
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post #114 of 155 Old 11-19-2012, 08:56 PM
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I have taken some leisure time to study this thread and Kat's responses and I smell fish.

"I've ridden him for almost 2 years in a snaffle,we have gotten great scores at First Level..."

Really? Centerline Scores doesn't show that. Doesn't show any scores for a TB cross named Diamonds Are Forever for the last 11 years, when he showed at training level. Do you show him under a different name or have you only shown at schooling shows? Schooling shows use less experienced judges, hence the term schooling show.

"This is my first time riding him the double bridle....I have used it before with other horses with much success. "

Curious about this statement, also. A self-labeled 2nd level rider riding in a DB on "other horses"? Where in Maine is this Upper Level Mecca Of Dressage where a student has access to multiple 4thL+ schoolhorses? Or are we talking Saddlebreds or Morgans? That's a different discipline entirely.

"But good horses can take riders very far...even if that person isn't talented or very skilled". Like Rath and Totilas, right?

Do as you wish. Perhaps the extensive justifications you have offered are a form of learning. I've had students like that. But you have never addressed the cluelessness of your poll, and for those of us who have walked the walk, that is the dead giveaway.

I don't need to see how Kayty, Anebel, Duffy, Minstrel, Kaye, and others ride to know how very correct they are in their theory and their responses to you. I can tell that they have been there, done that, and have the saddlesores and humility to prove it.

And as to using a double bridle on a 21 y o poorly trained horse regularly because you believe it is the only way to get what you believe is collection, if you are looking for a pat on the back, I suggest you go lay down behind a cow. It won't come from me.
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post #115 of 155 Old 11-20-2012, 02:06 PM
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I'm not getting involved in this fight. But Centerline scores are not completely comprehensive. I stalked myself and found ancient scores from tests on my old horse in 1999. There are no shows from the previous years. There are also no scores after 1999, even though I was riding tests on my current horse at USDF and AHSA recognized shows from 2000-2002.

Anyway, carry on.
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post #116 of 155 Old 11-24-2012, 07:06 PM
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What I find interesting about the double bridle is how opinions on it have rapidly changed. It wasn't so long ago in England that snaffles were considered fit only for grooms, children, young horses and the mutton-fisted! Everyone else would only be seen riding in the double, especially on the hunting field.

I personally do not ride in a double bridle but I do ride my pony in a hartwell pelham with two (or four, depending on how you think of it) reins. I ride him in this in the school and out hacking as well as over the odd jump. He also has a sharer who rides him in a snaffle with a flash noseband and martingale. She is a child and would find 4 reins difficult to cope with and he is can be quite hot headed. In getting my pony used to his pelham, I followed the advice of Laura Bechtolsheimer in relation to double bridles which was to start off by hacking your horse out in one before moving onto simple schooling. I don't really understand the idea of only putting on a double bridle for competition or for the odd training session. If the horse is going to be comfortable and you as a rider are going to be able to use it correctly, you need to be training in it regularly. I also spent a few months practising with four reins off the horse so that I would be able to handle them once riding and had lessons with a good instructor to make sure I was using it correctly.

The way I use my pelham with two reins is essentially riding off the snaffle and allowing the curb rein to be activated by my pony: e.g. If he is going correctly, he only feels the weight of the rein with no contact there. If he pushes his nose too far in front of the vertical, he brings the curb chain into effect by himself. This way he essentially teaches himself. I use this bridle for showing as I do not compete in dressage.

My definition of a schoolmaster (as it was discussed earlier and the definitions given were different from mine) is a horse or pony who is well schooled and understands the aids for his game up to the level he is trained to. He is not necessarily quiet (my pony, for example, was a JC showjumper and FEI event pony but is not quiet to ride and can be very hot headed) but if he or she is given the correct aids and ridden in the correct manner, he or she will respond correctly. This is why true schoolmasters are often not novice rides. A true schoolmaster is different to a quiet or beginner riding school horse, for example, and has often competed at a decent level with success in his or her discipline. They are usually used to teach competent riders the more specialist aspects of a sport e.g. How self carriage should feel or how to execute flying changes correctly.

So, essentially, a true dressage or showing schoolmaster is ideal to use for teaching a rider how to use a double rider in the presence of a good instructor who understands the bridle and the bits. This is because they are already used to the bridle so you can concentrate on yourself and your riding. If you want to use a double or even a pelham with 2 reins, this is what I would recommend before trying to train a horse who isn't used to it in one.

Also, reading about how the bits work and watching videos on this (including different rein positions) is actually invaluable before you start. I know some people think only practise helps, but I disagree. Knowing how these bits operate mechanically and what you are trying to achieve is absolutely essential in my opinion. I see a lot of people riding in doubles or draw reins who do not know what they are doing and their horses are going round with their noses in their chests rather than in self carriage and it is very sad.

But, to answer the question, there is no reason why you cannot ride in a double bridle every day if it is used correctly and your horse is schooled to understand impulsion, straightness, rhythm, direct and progressive transitions and is responsive to the leg, body and hand in the snaffle. I also believe it can be useful as a training tool in so far as you school a horse thoroughly to novice/elementary level (UK levels) before introducing it as you can continue your training from there. Of course, you do not rely on the bridle or expect it to train your horse but it can then help you with your flying changes and collection used correctly as you can use it to refine your aids and give clearer requests.
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post #117 of 155 Old 11-24-2012, 07:24 PM
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OP - does your horse ever do anything that doesnt involve going round and round an arena or menage?
All of my horses whatever discipline they were involved in went out hacking (yes I will use this word!!!) as part of their fitness programme. There are many top showhunters in the UK who actually go hunting for real
It helps a horse keep its mind alert, they go so sour & bored doing the same old same old day in day out
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post #118 of 155 Old 11-25-2012, 02:19 AM
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In the UK, particularly in the showing world, there is an attitude that once a horse's mouth is mature enough for a pelham/double and the rider has the skill to ride in it, that they should be ridden in it consistently. However, the number of things the showing world thinks should be done which collide majorly with proper dressage training is pretty huge, and there's a reason you can always spot a dressage-trained horse in the show ring - they always move up the line after the individual show. I agree that when a horse is first learning to go in the double, they should be ridden in it consistently for a while, but this is to let them learn to work in it, not to use it to iron out problems in training in a snaffle. There is no problem riding more than once in a blue moon in a double, especially when your horse is learning to go in it, where I agree hacking out in it is a very useful way for them to adjust, but it is the use of it to iron out training problems that we disagree with - it's a bandaid fix.

And ofc schoolmasters are not always quiet - however you do expect a schoolmaster to have done some competing before. I would be complaining if I bought a 'schoolmaster' to discover he didn't compete - that is often why people buy them, to learn how to hone their skills out at shows rather thn at home in the ring.
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post #119 of 155 Old 11-25-2012, 05:09 AM
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If the horse was in a college (university) equestrian program, it concievably competed to American First Level without setting hoof off the college eq centre grounds. Any show it competed in would have been held at the uni it lived in and riders from other unis would have ridden it. That's how IHSA shows work. It would not, in this context, have competed to Second or Third level since intercollegiate dressage doesn't go past First. Indeed, this would be unfair since not every college can be expected to have school horses capable of the harder stuff. It doesn't mean they don't have them (my uni had a couple ex FEI horses), so for all we know, Kat's horse could be schooled to Third. Like my uni, Johnson and Wales has a program with a good reputation, so people will donate quality horses to them.
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post #120 of 155 Old 11-25-2012, 07:06 AM Thread Starter
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@ jaydee: Yes we have extensive trails around the barn and several fields. I love to take him out to the field; he just loves galloping. My boy also just likes going on a trail ride after our arena rides. He also loves to jump and we do a small amount of that to keep him interested. I find that if I go for several rides without doing something like that he gets rather cranky.

@thesilverspear: Yes this is exactly the case with him. This is why he has really no exposure...he was at the JWU for about 9 years I believe. And he wasn't even trained until he was 8 or 9ish. He is a schoolmaster to me because he knows more than me and can teach me. That's what is important. And even if I couldn't show him...doesn't mean I wouldn't still ride and learn from him. Showing isn't everything...

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