Double Bridles - Page 4 - The Horse Forum
View Poll Results: Double Bridles
They are a great teaching aid 22 51.16%
I use them all the time 0 0%
They are unneccesary and cruel 4 9.30%
Don't have an opinon 17 39.53%
Voters: 43. You may not vote on this poll

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post #31 of 155 Old 11-06-2012, 09:51 PM
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OP you have not said you are pulling because you have not realized it. Pick up a physics textbook, I have a few used ones you can borrow too.
The same load can be raised with less force by a level and fulcrum (ie a curb bit) than by straight lifting (ie a snaffle bit). That is why its easier to "collect" the horse if you're pulling on a curb as opposed to a snaffle. In this same way, if you find the horse easier in a curb than snaffle it is to say that the pulling of your hand is amplified by the curb and the horse backs off the bit. So while you have not said that you pull, I can infer it from what else you are saying about your riding.

Also, who's definition of "more correct" are we going by? I have a feeling that you think that if the horse is lighter in the hand and moves with a smaller stride it must be collected. When in fact the opposite us true. You are very effectively backing the horse off of the bit and behind your leg. Take a picture of the horses musculature now and in 3 months, I can describe to you now the changes you will see if you continue riding in a backwards fashion. Topline loss, sunken wither muscles, built up croup muscles, etc..

It's great that you can read books, literacy is a great life skill. But riding and reading have very little to do with one another. Without having a set of knowledgeable eyes on the ground, you have no idea what is right or wrong. I've mentioned some riders/coaches in an earlier post who exemplify correctness in their training. A clinic with any of them I think you would find eye opening, even to audit. Far better than any book.

Good luck!
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Last edited by ~*~anebel~*~; 11-06-2012 at 09:54 PM.
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post #32 of 155 Old 11-07-2012, 10:11 AM
Join Date: Jun 2011
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Originally Posted by katdressagegirl View Post
It's not a band-aid for poor riding at all.
My post never said anything about poor riding, training issues on the other hand, yes.

Originally Posted by katdressagegirl View Post
He's so much lighter and has more impulsion overall. I am able to focus on getting myself in the right position and getting him in the right position very easily and everything comes that much easier...whether it's mediums, half-passes, counter-canter serpentines...he's relaxed and moving more correctly overall. And isn't that the goal of dressage?
yes that is the goal of dressage but, you are getting false positives. It's not true lightness.

Originally Posted by katdressagegirl View Post
my instructor said about a half dozen times to build some correct muscle and so he learns that he can go about it more relaxed and evenly. Then we will go back to the snaffle and work the same movements. I can guarantee you that he will be ten times better by then. This is my first time riding him the double bridle....I have used it before with other horses with much success. Please..again...maybe I'm thick but no one here is making any sense.
So, why can't your instructor fix this issue with a snaffle? why does he/she need to use a double? I stand by my get a new coach comment.

Originally Posted by katdressagegirl View Post
Seems to me you have pre-concieved notions about what I am doing...instead of taking the time to understand. Believe me...I've studied a ton of dressage theory and I get the whole not riding front to back, pulling their heads in, etc etc. And so that's not what is happening here.
Put all the books down. Go, get GOOD lessons from GOOD instructors you will learn a lot more then from the books. Even how to fix the issues your having, with a snaffle.

There are quite a few people on the is site that have put in some serious serious hours on, not only, horses in General but, riding and training Dressage. They keep saying the same thing to you, you keep saying they don't understand.
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post #33 of 155 Old 11-07-2012, 11:08 AM
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KAt, what I dont understand is why a girl who has admitted in a previous threads she only rides to second leve, is dismissing the advice of others who ride and win at far higher levels (Anebel has won at PSG and i believe is riding at higher, Katy is of similar level, I myself have ridden to advanced medium which is 4th level in the US I believe).

Take the advice given to you by those that have been there and done it already.

If Anebel or katy tells me I am doing something wrong then I take thier advice and run with it as thier knowlege far exceeds my own. Often I will take thier advice and consult my mum and trainer, (my mum has ridden internationaly) but I will ALWAYS concider it
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RIDE your horse FORWARDS and keep him STRAIGHT

Last edited by faye; 11-07-2012 at 11:11 AM.
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post #34 of 155 Old 11-07-2012, 03:40 PM Thread Starter
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Well I'd just like to say that I have discussed this thoroughly with my instructor (whom I'm not going to change just because some random person who doesn't know her or me at all and has never seen us ride) and it is possible I haven't explained myself correctly or you have misinterpreted what I have said but she says yes I should use the double bridle on my (well actually the horse is hers) horse. She says that I've have put my time in with the snaffle and it's time to use the double bridle for more refinement. And isn't that what I am doing? I'm getting him more collected, more correct moving, and better off of my aids overall. Refining is a form of training after all. And she says that my horse knows how to do all the movements (he's essentially a schoolmaster) and that the double bridle will help us both get to the next level. This isn't my first time in the double bridle either...neither is it his. By using the double bridle, we are working out some of our issues.

So while I totally get what you all are saying (and agree with it) ...I can't take any of it because it doesn't apply to my riding. I'm not riding him front to back, I'm not hanging on his mouth, and I'm not encouraging him to move incorrectly. As stated before.

@ anebel: Your comment about him losing muscling over his topline and etc....totally agree with it. IF I was riding him front to back. Let me just tell you that when we first got him; he was that way. He looked like a giraffe his head was huge and his neck was was his butt. Now, over a year later, he looks great. So don't worry about that.

Your comment, " But riding and reading have very little to do with one another. Without having a set of knowledgeable eyes on the ground, you have no idea what is right or wrong" First of all, I do have a set of knowledgeable eyes on the ground...second of all are you saying we shouldn't read any dressage theory? Because without understanding that first how can we hope to do it well? I think that a combination of both is essential.

@ faye:

Because for one thing I don't know her in real life and so I'm not going to blindly follow her. I'm not accusing her of course, but for all I know she could be a fake. I'm willing to take the advice of knowledgeable people who can prove to me their advice can be trusted. But someone who hasn't even taken the time to get the whole truth? Who never asked any questions...gotten any facts before blindly assuming she knows? Yeah I am not about to take her words as God's own truth. And even though I'm only a Second Level rider...I have a good instructor, a good horse, and common sense that will tell me what something isn't going right. And I never asked her opinion...she just kind of put it out there and I disagree. She has never seen a video or even a picture. Besides you know how easy it is to take something someone said on a forum and twist it around, or take it the wrong way. She probably never considered for a second that I might not actually be an ignorant backyard rider and that I might know what I'm talking about in relation with my horse. And honestly...just because you have competed at a certain level doesn't mean you are an amazing rider. It does mean you have a good horse...and a bit of skill. But not enough for me to follow someone who I simply know through a forum. And hey! I considered it enough to bring it to my instructor, who just shook her head and laughed. She says yes that's good advice, just doesn't apply to you. SO I'm not concerned a bit.
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post #35 of 155 Old 11-07-2012, 05:13 PM
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To the OP in your response to me about reading versus riding. I do think that riding plays a far more important role in the education of the rider than reading. For a coach, yes they should be well read and versed in the musings of others, as well as having had a large arsenal of horses in training throughout their careers. There is always something to be learned about a certain type of horse and it is always helpful to have the words of others to teach our students. The problem with a fairly basic rider reading a lot is that they do not know when to apply certain things, what will work for their horse and what is actually a correct feeling. This is why the coach is so important to the rider, they are able to "pre-chew" information to give it to the rider in the right sequence and at the right time. Talking about refining the aids with a double bridle is all well and good, but not with a rider still learning timing for the changes, riding the pirouettes, half pass and who has really only felt the beginnings of collection. The rider, as well as the horse, should be able to create and maintain a high level of collection, ride with it through movements and with correct timing before being given a tool like a double bridle (large spurs, different whips and thigh blocks on a saddle are other things that I include in this category).
However, that is getting into semantics, and I digress.

About your response to faye - I will let you know that the "ignorant backyard riders" you have classed yourself with happen to comprise my entire client base.
As well about the "upper level" and "a bit of skill" comments. Coming from someone who has again admitted that they have ridden to second level only, that is a very, very bold statement. It's in the same way I will not comment on the conduct of CEOs, presidents and others far above my experience level in those situations. My current FEI horse was purchased as a 5 year old, did his first PSG at 8 with a winning score and posted his first CDI win at 9 years of age, the youngest horse at the competition. I will leave it to your imagination to come up with who you think was riding the horse for these years.
Of course your coach sees no issues with the way you or the horse are being taught as it is under her suggestion to do these things. This is why I suggest a clinic with a coach and rider whom has proven themselves internationally. If only to serve as a "check". Anyone with a pair of riding boots can put on a "dressage trainer" hat and parade around as if they know what they are doing. It does not require a computer as you would suggest.
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post #36 of 155 Old 11-07-2012, 05:49 PM Thread Starter
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Well of course! A coach is great for that...I think that riders should listen to what someone more experienced then them has to say (not over a computer) especially someone they are trusting to further their riding. But I think it's perfectly reasonable that someone read a bit of dressage theory, digest it, ask questions about it, and learn through that as well. You do need real-world application however; I'm not saying you can learn by reading but it could help someone grasp a concept easier. I'm lucky my instructor is very good about explaining things; but I'm also one of those people who enjoy reading and I can say it has helped me. So I think it is foolish to downplay the effects of reading. However, a book cannot replace an instructor.

And I'd like to add...I'm not ashamed to be "only a second level rider" I've worked hard and long to get here and I hope to improve upon that of course but I'm never going to be upset because I'm not better. I feel quite happy with what I've done with the horses I have ridden...and yes hey if I had some extremely expensive awesome horse with spectacular movement and I took lessons from an Olympic level coach yeah I'd be better. Who wouldn't? But I have taken what I can get and done the best I can do. I have put lots of time and energy and money into it and I'm so not ashamed to say I'm a second level rider.

I'm not saying that you aren't a good rider; didn't say that at all. But good horses can take riders very far...even if that person isn't talented or very skilled. I just rather laugh at someone who thinks that just because you claim these things I should be taking your every word. While I appreciate what you have to say (which is things I already understand...and nothing to do with my riding) I see absolutely no reason to stop anything I am doing.

And yes I would love to participate in clinics and lessons and everything; I think they are very beneficial. But first of all, there isn't a whole lot of that around here...although that's not saying I never have had a lesson outside of my instructor. If I felt that I honestly was doing something going against the principles of dressage then yes! I would do something about it. But you already know my view on that. And my instructor is someone I trust implicitly. She isn't just someone with a pair of riding boots with a 'dressage trainer' hat. She is very good at what she does; the health of the horse is always her first priority and she is quite successful. So I'm very happy with whom I have as a trainer at this point. I find it ludicrous that anyone could judge what someone else does or how they ride with out first seeing video. Because the basic truth is you don't know enough details to honestly give an opinion. (even if I was asking for one)

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post #37 of 155 Old 11-07-2012, 06:45 PM
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I still think that you've missed many of my points, and the points that others have made. It might do you well to leave this thread for a few weeks and then come back and read things with fresh eyes.
While you claim I should need a video to see how you ride, that is not actually true. Based on your understanding of basic riding principles, which literature you choose to quote and equipment you choose to use, as well as your reasoning to do so have lead me to the conclusions I have come to about your riding. As well your responses to critique are telling towards your willingness to learn and what your goals in riding truly are.
Good luck in your riding, and please know that there are many of us with far fewer riding opportunities than you have in Maine.
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post #38 of 155 Old 11-07-2012, 07:06 PM
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if the point of the matter is that you feel you are riding a certain way (back to front as is the goal), then can you get a video of you riding this horse in either a snaffle or the double and then we can discuss what we ACTUALLY SEE? that would put the rest the question of assumptions without visuals.

just my $.02
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post #39 of 155 Old 11-07-2012, 08:02 PM
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Much agreed with Crimsom. It is unfair of either party to judge without seeing what is happening. Words, particularly typed words, may come out how they were not intentioned.

As for riding/Dressage opportunities - I live in Adelaide, South Australia. It is basically the Dressage hole of Australia, which is trying madly to scramble after the 'big guys' like Europe and now the US.
If I have to pay $200 for a 40minute lesson, take 4 days off work to travel to the other side of the tate for a clinic, and have to live off bread and vegemite (the delightfully salty black gunk we Aussies call our own) for a few weeks afterwards... then I do it. The oportunities around here are few and far between, and there are even fewer quality coaches available. If you want to ride as well as you are able to do so, you NEED to work your butt off and put yourself out to do it.
I don't hole myself in with one coach. I have a 'main' coach that has been teaching me since I was 10 years old. I respect her opinions and she has created a very solid foundation in my riding. But I supplement her opinions and teaching, with clinicians of whom I appreciate their riding and knowledge, and various other coaches around the state. From that, I then pick and chose the knowledge I would like to use on this particular horse, and which I would like to 'stash' in my 'tool box' for another horse that may work better with different methods.

I get more out of 20minutes with a clinician, than reading 3 books about Dressage.
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post #40 of 155 Old 11-08-2012, 03:47 AM
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I drove to Scotland (7hours) for a 30min lesson that cost me 80 (plus the 200 in fuel to get the horse up there!) to further my riding. Heck I've even gone to germany and had lessons in a totaly different language (although that was not on my horse). I've ridden horses for others, ridden any horse I was offered the ride on even if the horse was dangerous (had one tunr a summersault on me), I've worked my behind off as a groom and ridden for Para Riders. I've schooled horses on only for them to be sold out from under me.

I've never had expensive horses and I've never realy had a premade horse. Reeco is my most expensive horse I have ever owned, he was 2500 as an unbroken 3yrold! He is now 5 and I'm struggling to get him ridden again after his injury.
Stan who I rode at medium level cost the grand total of 1600 and was a 14hh connemara so not exactly your perfect "grand dressage horse" He was oppinionated, stubborn, had one hell of a buck in him and riding him injured me quite badly (2 crushed discs in my lower spine, psyatica in my right leg, serious whiplash injuries to my neck).

Jeff who I have on loan is here for schooling, I've improved him alot and he is so much fun, however his owner has just advertised him for sale.

So yes I know all about taking a non ideal horse and moving up through the levels, I know the dedication it takes and I know that bunging a double in your horses mouth is giving you a false positive.

They say a little bit of knowlege is a bad thing, in your case I think this is utterly correct. Take the advice of those who have been there already, get yourself to several clinics and ride him in the snaffle, I highly doubt you'd be told to put him in the double

RIDE your horse FORWARDS and keep him STRAIGHT

Last edited by faye; 11-08-2012 at 03:49 AM.
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