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Dressage legal Bit with the best brakes

This is a discussion on Dressage legal Bit with the best brakes within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category
  • Legal dressage bits with more control
  • Dressage legal bit for control

 
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    07-16-2010, 12:13 AM
  #11
Trained
Everyone answered your question, you just don't like the answer.

If you are a beginner, you should not be on a horse that is so forward it is "dangerous".

A stronger bit will not make for a better rider or horse.

Find a trainer who can give you lessons once a week. Ask for advice (and take it) from people on here, read, research, etc. You need to train yourself and the horse, not buy a bit. The bit will only mask the problem, not fix it.
     
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    07-16-2010, 12:42 AM
  #12
Green Broke
Shadowanne; I don't think there is an answer to your question which was 'what is a Dressage legal bit with the best brakes'. The question is somewhat of a contradiction of terms, making answering it very difficult.

There is a reason that there are strict regulations on dressage bits, especially in the lower dressage levels. That is to ensure that the horse is responding to correct training and riding rather than use of tack or gimmicks. If anything, using a single jointed and relatively slim full cheek snaffle should be more than enough to elicit a response from a basically schooled horse. I understand the joys of having a very forward moving horse (I school OTTB's) and all I can say is that it will take patience and a lot of hard work on your behalf but laying a good foundation now will serve you well in the future. I am currently riding my OTTB mare in a thick rubber eggbutt snaffle and she is very happy and responsive in it. Didn't happen straight away and took many many hours of work but is well worth it for the enjoyable riding now!
     
    07-16-2010, 01:07 AM
  #13
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by wild_spot    
A baucher bit IS a snaffle - It doesn't have leverage because there is no curb chain and the reins are not atached lower than the mouthpiece.
Sorry, I was using a shorthand, referring to my original post where I stated I used an Eggbutt snaffle to start with. I also never said the Baucher was a Leverage bit, but that I wanted a bit that provided some leverage (the general grammatical definition of the word) against my forward moving horse.

I didn't know the horse was forward moving when I purchased her. She wasn't when I tried her - she's just a sly opportunist and has taken advantage of me to start with and I'm just trying to get it back - but I admit, she's still more then I'm ready for, but I will catch up to her soon.

I obviously don't speak horse-related language, so I'll go back to lurking. This thread has worn me out.

At least sarahver actually answered my question.
     
    07-16-2010, 01:36 AM
  #14
Trained
^ I was just pointing out that a Baucher has exactly the same amount of leverage as any other snaffle - Zero. All it does is sit stiller and in a particular position in the mouth because of the hanging cheekpieces.

People here are friendly and willing to give advice - However there aren't many here who will agree with anyone who is looking for a bit to solve a horses/riders issues. A bit is a communication tool, and not a fix-it tool. Most people who are giving the advice (Myself included) ahve been way overhorsed at some point - And most of us have simply stepped up and done what we had to to manage our horses without resorting to stronger bits.
     
    07-16-2010, 04:35 PM
  #15
Green Broke
In addition to what I suggested previously, I also think you should develop some techniques that will help your horse respect the bit rather than using a kimberwick and then expecting the same response when you change to a snaffle as it won't happen like that!

Why don't you try working the horse in the kimberwick for the majority of the ride, then when she is responsive, switch bridles back to the snaffle bit. Work on getting respect from her whichever bit you happen to be using. Gradually, try riding every other ride with the snaffle only (e.g. If you ride four times a week, alternate so you ride kimberwick, snaffle, kimberwick, snaffle). Make sure that when you ask for a half halt or a downwards transition you GET the desired response - ask, ask, TELL. What I mean by that is that you ask for the response, ask again, then you TELL her. One good excercise I have found to work on horses that ignore your commands is to stop and back four paces, then continue. This is a lot of work and you may find that your workouts extend far and beyond an hour or two depending on the horse. The point is that you want an instant reaction when you ask for it, so make sure that you get it. Your horse will soon find that it is much easier to work nicely and calmly than it is to constantly stop and back up every few strides.

People on here (myself included) get a little tetchy when the subject of bits is brought up and with good reason - many bits are used for purposes other than what they were designed for. It is fine that your trainer suggested using a kimberwick as a training tool, but did she have a strategy for its impementation? What were you going to do differently with this bit that you weren't doing with a snaffle previously? I.e. Were you given advice on how to use it with the ultimate goal of schooling back to a snaffle? The reason I ask is that if you continue to use the kimberwick as if it were simply a snaffle with better 'brakes' your horse will develop a harder mouth over time and you will find yourself in a real pickle.

Another thing people get hot over (again I am guilty of this) is 'trainers' giving less than creditable advice, particularly when it comes to the improper use of tack and gimmicks. There was a thread on here somewhere a while ago where someone happened to mention that their 'trainer' had advised her to sedate her horse before a lesson, can you imagine? People who use running martingales to keep a horses head down is another pet hat of mine. Sorry to use you as an example Beling, but tightening the flash on a noseband is precisely what I am talking about. All these measure might be a quick fix, but is not in the long term interests of the horse OR the rider.

As I said, using the kimberwick is OK as a training tool, but ask your trainer how she plans to help you wean yourself and your horse off that bit and come back to a snaffle, it could take considerable work and patience on your behalf but you will be a better and more knowledgeable rider for it. Honestly, I hope you guys have success and I am sorry that you feel you have to go back to 'lurking' on this forum, it's just that some of what you said hit a raw nerve with some of us that have heard similar stories many times over. We probably should bear in mind that this may be your first experience in this situation, doesn't mean you don't know anything about horses or dressage, just means that you need some help with a problem you may not have encountered yet.

Good luck,
Sarah.
     
    07-17-2010, 03:21 PM
  #16
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt    
Please please please do not do this anymore. The noseband is not to be used to "keep the mouth shut." It is there as a decoration mostly, to finish the "english" look, and it is used with a standing martingale as well, but even then the noseband should NOT be tight.
Oh, I'm not saying this is right! But it IS a way used to help control a beginner rider on a strong horse. I HATE the flash noseband-- I used one for years, and it didn't teach my horse a thing. My teacher would tighten it before a lesson, and I'd loosen it afterwards. (She'd been to Europe and there, they made it so tight the horse's jaw was locked. We gave about half an inch...) But I thought it was worthwhile to give a temporary "fix" in what could be a difficult situation. It's sometimes enough to get a horse listening. But it's not really just decoration, is it?

As for the word "brakes" I wanted to stress that no matter what bit she used, NONE will work unless you have the cooperation of the horse. It's a dangerous thing to think your gadget puts you in total control, a false sense of security; unless you've thrown the horse to the ground, of course.
     
    07-17-2010, 03:34 PM
  #17
Green Broke
The only problem I have with you using a sharp bit is... if you are a beginner, you don't have great hands (supple, light,following the horse etc.) or experienced enough hands for using a harsh bit, if you trying to hold your hands still and trotting around, you still could be yanking ro pulling on his mouth, which hurts in a harsh bit. Im not saying youlr not a good rider, ALL of use do it at some point! :)
But maybe just try some exercises to help get some brakes on your hrose!:)
     
    07-17-2010, 05:29 PM
  #18
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beling    
Oh, I'm not saying this is right! But it IS a way used to help control a beginner rider on a strong horse. I HATE the flash noseband-- I used one for years, and it didn't teach my horse a thing. My teacher would tighten it before a lesson, and I'd loosen it afterwards. (She'd been to Europe and there, they made it so tight the horse's jaw was locked. We gave about half an inch...) But I thought it was worthwhile to give a temporary "fix" in what could be a difficult situation. It's sometimes enough to get a horse listening. But it's not really just decoration, is it?
If it was truly "decoration" then it should not have the power to squeeze a horse's face. It is a fad that I'm rather sick of. I sincerely hope you mean she witnessed the European horses' jaw being shut, not doing so herself.

To the OP-I won't give advice because others have given you words that are similar to what I was thinking. Honestly I think if you're a beginner you shouldn't be learning on a horse that can overpower you like that.
     
    07-17-2010, 06:59 PM
  #19
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beling    
But it IS a way used to help control a beginner rider on a strong horse.
I'm sorry, but no it is not, that is incorrect and it should definitely not be taught to anyone, especially beginners.
     
    07-17-2010, 07:29 PM
  #20
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beling    
Oh, I'm not saying this is right! But it IS a way used to help control a beginner rider on a strong horse. I HATE the flash noseband-- I used one for years, and it didn't teach my horse a thing. My teacher would tighten it before a lesson, and I'd loosen it afterwards. (She'd been to Europe and there, they made it so tight the horse's jaw was locked. We gave about half an inch...) But I thought it was worthwhile to give a temporary "fix" in what could be a difficult situation. It's sometimes enough to get a horse listening. But it's not really just decoration, is it?

As for the word "brakes" I wanted to stress that no matter what bit she used, NONE will work unless you have the cooperation of the horse. It's a dangerous thing to think your gadget puts you in total control, a false sense of security; unless you've thrown the horse to the ground, of course.
In Dressage, yes, the noseband is pretty much JUST decoration. There is nothing the noseband can do to physically help the horse while being ridden in Dressage. However in Jumping(especially over jumps that don't fall), the noseband protects the horses jaw from being broken if the horse falls(the bottem jow acts as a shovel), but it should still be loose enough that the horse can chew food.
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