The Horse Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.

French Classical Dressage vs. Modern/Competitive Dressage?

11K views 33 replies 9 participants last post by  equitate 
#1 ·
Hey All,
I've been looking around my area for dressage lessons. I emailed one person I was interested in she told me she only taught french classical dressage. As the title says, what is the difference between french classical dressage and modern competitive dressage? Thank you all and have great week!
 
#2 ·
I would say French classical dressage emphasizes balance, lightness and harmony as it is developed slowly and methodically. I think the primary reference would writing by la .Gueniere ( spelling?). In contrast, it seems modern competitive dressage emphasizes obedience and performance (which should result in harmony and lightness) and uses techniques that potentially produce quicker results for competition. That said, many dressage riders and trainers use Classical methods to varying degrees to support the education of their horses.
I would ask the person you e-mailed what you expect in lessons and then discuss if or how your goals and expectations align with what this person has to offer. Every trainer / instructor will have their own strengths and weaknesses. I think it is important to work with someone who's philosophy about horsemanship aligns with your own. It is also important to find someone who has studied and is themselves educated in some formal way. Anyone can hang their shingle and call themselves a coach. Personally, I want to see credentials in the way of recognized formal training or credentials and proven show experience. An instructor that can ride well but cannot explain why and what they do is no help to someone who is just learning.
 
#4 ·
Thank you both for your replies.
Tinyliny: I've been riding for 18+ years, so I know their is a difference between the two dressages I mentioned.
I am looking at competing as soon as I have a few lessons and find a barn that allows me to compete with their horses. Not the very big shows, but I know some barns around here offer dressage schooling shows.
 
#8 ·
I see. I 'm sorry, I thought you had said you were new in the sense of new to riding.

what sort of riding are you doing now? what is your general approach or philosophy to riding? I ask because I think the French School is more focused on slow development and will do a lot more small excersizes focussed on getting the horse light in the bit, more in hand work, and may have a more , shall I say, 'nitpikky' approach in getting things exactly by the book, whereas competitive dressage will be more about moving out , riding more vigorously, more focus on the impulsion of the horse, the geometry of the movements on the larger scale.

which is better suited for your personality type?
 
#5 ·
Your goal of competing on someone else's horses is an important consideration when choosing a barn or trainer. Do you want to compete for the fun of it, to win, to improve your riding or to improve the horse? These are all valid reasons, but each will set forth different needs when finding a barn. If you want to learn to ride dressage to improve your riding, you needed to find someone who is very good with seat and has a solid schoolmaster to learn on. Ideally, they should offer you a few months of lunge line lessons to help you find a correct seat.
I have learned (and I rode for over 30 years before entering the dressage world) that years of experience riding gives you minimal credit in dressage unless you have years with a correct seat. Unless you learned to ride with a correct seat early on, you would not have had opportunity to learn correctly and you will find the learning curve steep. That said, it is awesome once you start to learn and realize how much you can do with very subtle precise changes in your whole body. You shift from "riding your horse" to having a conversation while "dancing with your horse". This is huge and takes time and patience. I feel it is also the appeal of dressage. My advice is not to rush just to get into the ring, but take the time to learn correctly. If your new coach isn't commenting at the correctness of your seat and posture, find another one. Just my humble opinion.
Most importantly, have fun!!
 
#6 ·
If you intend to compete in dressage (Euro/modern dressage) then you really would be better off finding a trainer who can steer you in the right direction to do that and not just 'ride dressage style'
Years ago the two weren't that divided and then modern dressage went through its 'dark period' with the use of Rolkurr, over bent horses and more front leg action than hind end it was like a huge wall was built between them with a lot of bad feeling but that's gradually coming down and the teaching from a classical perspective would benefit you - provided she knows how to ride the Tests to get the best results
 
#7 ·
One more thought. Dressage schooling shows are great for the feedback they provide you and lots of fun. When you read your tests, don't look at what the horse did well and what it could improve on, but read them as what you did well and can improve on. Each movement and its rape give score will tell you something about your riding.
 
#9 ·
I find French tends to attract more um, 'flowery', naturalistic types of people. There also seems to be a lot of poorly ridden French dressage and it is excused by saying how they being ridden lightly, or they don't want to put pressure on the horse.

So you have to be careful which type this barn is. French tends to focus more on flexions(signature), self carriage, lightness. Where as more modern/German(?) Style is more about forward and impulsion, then self carriage.
 
#10 ·
The particular person I emailed said she only teaches french classical dressage and does not focus on the competition aspects. I would like an instructor who rides and of course knows dressage, but not forcing the horse in a frame. I would like to compete, the only reason I can't compete on my horse is that I don't have a trailer. That is why I would like to find a instructor that has dressage schoolmasters that I can learn more about it and possibly show with them.
 
#11 · (Edited)
I'd say any good dressage riding makes self carriage a goal and objective, as well as throughness and harmony. The horse should always be seeking the contact and not held back against it or lacking connection.

When I was in Germany I saw some incredible riding, some were harsh and used excessive force while others were in such harmony with the horses it was absolutely beautiful to watch. Just lovely. ANY discipline, ANYWHERE you go there will be good riding and bad riding. Good training and bad training. I wouldn't lump all of modern dressage or classical dressage together. The dutch system is VERY different from the german system, french system or neoclassical system.

But I agree with getting correct basics and I WOULDNT train with someone who only educates you about how to sit. I'm not saying equitation isn't important but how you sit in the saddle isn't as important as riding effectively and moving with the horses. I've seen so many riders who stood still sat perfectly but in action were essentially useless because all they knew was how to pose on a horse without effective use of the aids or any tactful ability. It is important to develop good feel, sensitivity, and understanding of the horses body and how to ride because in theory how things "should" work isn't usually how it works out in practice. Effective riding is very important and developing a seat that allows you to move with the horse, not merely sit "pretty." A good seat is an important part of equation but it's not in how you "look" sitting in the saddle but how skillful you become. Being supple, fluid and educated which takes time and can't be posed to develop properly. Same with hands. Ive heard so much talk about quiet, still hands which is a good thing but hands also need to learn to be tactful and skilled. Not just quiet.

In theory the french classical school is supposed to be about lightness and refinement of the aids. German school is more focused on rhythm and balance. Self carriage is the goal but different emphasis. I agree with ApuestoT that you see a lot of poorly ridden examples of french classical dressage. I agree they tend to target people who do not "know better" and kinda assert themselves as gurus.

I wont assert my personal views but simply show some videos.

French Classical



Traditional

https://youtu.be/mjakLY36Xck?list=PL7gpVf7dc9zx07nNc7l7_qZf0WKJoPCfl



This is "modern". Some are young horses. The first two video are a german rider Anna Sophie Fiebelkorn, the next two are Charlotte Dujardin.







 
#14 ·
I jsut watched the one by the follower/teacher of Racinet's teachings. interesting. I've read a little about it. I'm neither pro not con. one thing, though, . . that gray arab in the video did not seem to be going better after the training. it seemed tighter and falsely compressed, developing a shortened neck that will eventually lead to a dip in front of the withers. this is what happended to the Andalusian that I am riding now. too much work on the reins and getting a response, and not enough on getting true forward. you can wear a hrose out if you don't refresh them with regular releases and requests that they move foreward fully, without reservation or concern for the bit.
 
#15 ·
I agree on the french classical. Even though the horses are more "back yard" you can still see the lack of throughness, consistency and clarity. The frame is very false with "fixed" braced from the base of the neck, hollow outline and lack of throughness, connection, true collection, balance and just imo it's more like trick training.

But I agree. Absolutely need impulsion to get the whole body through, connected and engaged. You wont get that suppling the jaw. You can supple the jaw all day or not provide connection hardly at all and call it "light" but that wont create throughness or connection until the hind legs are engaged and they're able to be sent to the contact and meet a consistent connection, be in balance and have a consistent rhythm and tempo. Basic components of dressage. But you need forward energy and a horse who can work into a connection and meet contact without being held back against it or left without a connection but working with forward energy into a consistent contact.

Trying to find better ones to explain key concepts



Kind of a fun video of Quaterback, dressage stallion in Germany.

 
#17 ·
Absolutely need impulsion to get the whole body through, connected and engaged. You wont get that suppling the jaw. You can supple the jaw all day or not provide connection hardly at all and call it "light" but that wont create throughness or connection until the hind legs are engaged and they're able to be sent to the contact and meet a consistent connection, be in balance and have a consistent rhythm and tempo. Basic components of dressage. But you need forward energy and a horse who can work into a connection and meet contact without being held back against it or left without a connection but working with forward energy into a consistent contact.



This is so correct and so important its needs to be repeated!!!
 
#16 ·
well, those two videos show only very fancy warmbloods who are bred to have big forward movement. not a fair comparison.

also, I don't like the way the chestnut stallion is flailing with his front legs . that's another new thing in dressage, the front legs flailing out farther than they should be in extended trot, and the hind (not so much in this case) falling out the back.

the bay is behind the vertical half the time at least.
my point being , both styles are doing things that are quite possibly not optimal for the horse, nor as things are written in the so-called 'rules' of dressage.
 
#18 ·
The WB's that are being bred for top level dressage can't help but have that 'big' movement - but what you have to look for in terms of the horse being correct is how well the back end is moving to match up with it - as in pushing the horse forwards into that action
The young horse being btv - wouldn't worry me at that stage in its learning, its very hard to hold a horse together into those changes when its got a really light mouth and learning how to get the balance between leg and hand just right takes time
 
#21 ·
I don't see why it wouldn't be OK if it's not an intentional thing or too extreme - it can be hard to not have a horse slip btv if you're working it in a 'compressed energy' type situation when schooling.
The 'wrong' bit happens when a rider is deliberately and constantly pulling and holding the horse very much btv as part of their training method
You end up with a horse that can't use its back end to push itself forwards into a contact and/or a horse that's going to end up with its chin on its chest when asked to halt, half halt of even collect
 
#20 ·
Fabulous videos, I could watch them all day. Especially that big beautiful horse in the third video, the first one ridden by Anna Sophie Fiebelkorn

OMG does that horse love his work!

The biggest difference I see, besides the lack of true engagement in the first video showing the French Classical; it the disconnect between the movements in the F.C. It is more like trick training. I actually see more self-carriage and less interference by the rider in the one ridden by Anna Sophie Fiebelkorn She is such an elegant rider, and her aids are nearly invisible.

The other thing to look for is the fitness of the horses. In the F.C. video they look like backyard horses because their topline is weak from not using real engagement in the hindquarters.

That is not to say that backyard horses can't be competed in Dressage, I certainly did compete mine, but they were fit and had strong backs and did not look like a trail horse performing a trick.

To the OP, if you have a desire to compete, do not go to someone that doesn't compete. You will be wasting your time and money, and their time too.

I like competition because it helps me achieve goals and keep me focused and constantly improving.
 
#23 ·
The french video shown imho is a very poor example of traditional french riding. It shows false lightness. As far as Bartle (english olympian), he was a student of von Blixen-Fineke, a standard bearer of traditional riding (he was swedish by the way, and rode in the olympic in 32?). The rest are many various schools of riding, some modernist, but after the years of Bartle/Klimke/etc (after 84) there is virtually no riding in lightness and self carriage. Because of one fei dressage chairman's approach submission became primary, the rules morphed, etc.
 
#24 ·
Chris Bartle and Wily Trout competed in eventing before an accident that brought about the decision to focus on dressage. Blixen-Finecke got his gold medals for Eventing in 1952


Equitate - I think that you're confusing a horse dropping slightly btv at times with someone using Rolkurr
Being btv will lose you points in a test but it isn't against the rules in dressage
If you watch British rider Fiona Bigwood riding Atterupgaards Orthilia in this video you'll notice that the horse occasionally drops btv but still placed 4th in that competition and represents Britain at the highest level including this year's Olympics


 
#25 · (Edited)
I am not mixing up rk with btV. Btv happens in two ways: a greener horse losing balance momentarily which can be ignored for a stride or two, and a proper balance restored with energy or a (vertical) half halt. OR because the rider intentionally uses actions w/o cessation to compress/lower/etc to create precipitous flexion (or as on winning rider says l/r actions (onto the bars btw).) It is either accidental, or it is intentional. But a btV WILL affect the quality of the gaits (the horse cannot step through properly), and does act upon the bars. That is a given. (Is the vid an athletic horse? Yes. Does it ever have the occipital lobe the highest point? Is it straight (i.e. in the changes/reinback), is it tilting its head (i.e. in half passes), but most problematically the horse tosses out the fore legs and draws them back to land (the horse will ALWAYS ground the fore legs where the nose points), etc. The bearing created does have effects, and the posture IS incorrect (and would not have been ignored even 30 years ago).

Yes btv IS against the rules. The basic balance and bearing of the horse is requested not only in the general rules, but in each movement as well. Only in piaffe is the horse allowed to come to the vertical (and that is a VERY recent change from those created by Decarpenty et all when the directives were made). In past times horses which closed their throatlatches steady (or worse yet were made compressed/btv) would have gotten 4s (insufficient) because the horse was ridden in such a way that they were allowed to seek the hand. Now both bits are used steadily w/o release as bits of flexion. Lightness and self carriage have all but disappeared in completion riding. And unfortunately false flexion is often seen for those who now attempt it.
 
#27 ·
I feel a lot of us ---me, anyway, --- need to re-learn how to see.

I just got a beautifully done calendar from the dressage club, but I haven't put it up, because although the horses are really gorgeous, they ALL look constrained in front, and uncomfortable. But I'm still trying to work out what I want to see.

Watching my horse play and prance out in the pasture, she's breathtakingly beautiful. And her head is high, and proud. Am I looking for something more like that? I want full control, of course; but I want a freely-moving, happy horse, too!
 
#32 ·
I feel a lot of us ---me, anyway, --- need to re-learn how to see.
I do believe this is one of the best statements I have seen.

Because I see something quite different than many of you see.

I do agree that Fiona's horse was BTV slightly for much of the test. However, I do not see that position forced on the horse at any point in that video. I would guess that the horse has a huge spacing (4 fingers or so) in her throat latch which allows a horse to naturally be able to flex at the poll more easily.

Beginning riders and horses are penalized more for BTV because at that level it is usually a training and rider error issue, not a result of the horses conformation and/or sensitive nature.

I also see a very well moving horse with excellent gaits. That is nature encouraged (through proper training) and rewarded by a very talented rider.

I also see no tight reins, only a very gentle contact. Stop and study the video at certain points and you will see the rider give a slight release of the rein at times.

In fact, I see this horse very much in self carriage and the rider consistently encouraging the horse to reach out for the reins a bit more.

Self carriage does not mean the reins have to be floppy! Self carriage is developed through proper riding to strengthen the horses topline. This is why horses shape will change over time.

Visualize the general outline of a QH and the general outline of a Friesian and you will see why it is easier for a Friesian to do upper level Dressage than it is for many QH.

I have been through the "L" judging program and was taught to see what judges are looking for and judging on.

Has anyone ever seen a horse perform the higher level movements in the pasture? I have seen horses do them and they are often BTV with no bit, no saddle, no rider.
 
#28 ·
When a horse is free they are up and open and their hind legs can step through, the same thing should be developed under saddle. The world de jour places value on precipitous flexion with the poll (the occipital lobe) no longer the higher point, horses compressed (after all the w.c. says that short reins win ribbons) with steadily torqued curbs, and truncated gaits as a result. What is rewarded is what trainers will asked their horses and their students to do, and without any any logic or traditional theory behind it.
 
#30 ·
It IS against the directives to ride btV (both in the general rules, and specifically within w/t/c, the fact that is ignored (and not scored down) by today's judges is what has lead to problematic training. Will it disqualify the rider? No. Should steadily btv=4? Yes. Or at least bring the scores very much down. The posture DOES negatively effect the quality of gaits, etc.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
Top