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Good Examples of True Collection?

This is a discussion on Good Examples of True Collection? within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category
  • Falscher knick translation
  • What is "falscher knick" mean?

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    11-14-2012, 07:32 PM
  #21
Foal
Agree with JustDressageIt.

That exemplifies the misconception that people have...that a horse being collected means that the head and neck 'look pretty.' A lot of people don't consider collection being a full-body thing.
     
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    11-14-2012, 07:34 PM
  #22
Trained
From what can be seen, poll is the highest point, face ever so slightly in front if the vertical, and assuming this horse was brought up right in the two rein and now close to being in the bridle I say YES
     
    11-14-2012, 07:39 PM
  #23
Super Moderator
I don't think you can tell from only the head and shoulder, but you can make an educated guess from it. In that photo the horse is very softly accepting the bit and his head is "hanging " down from the poll joint. I see no tension in the jaw or the large neck muscless. I would guess that it was collected, but it cannot be verified from that photo alone.
     
    11-14-2012, 08:23 PM
  #24
Green Broke
Thanks you guys.

From not even seeing the photo and husband describing it and the debate my immediate response was that you could not tell for sure if the horse was truly collected. My thought was that the whole horse would have to be seen in order to see if all the parts behind the neck and head were where they should be. But again without seeing the photo yet, my second thought was, that if body parts behind what you couldnt see were forced into position or there was not relaxation to allow "swing" as you guys call it, correct me if I am wrong, it seems that it translates to neck and face. So with seeing the photo you would be able to see at least a horse on his way to collection. Like desert horse and tiny said given the relaxation and softness you would assume he is on his way to collection, but as kat says, headset does not equal collection like so many seem to believe.

I thought maybe those much more experienced than I might be able to tell by looking at a photo like that and if so what exactly you see. Thanks for the responses!
     
    11-14-2012, 08:41 PM
  #25
Trained
Looking at the picture again, I see an elevated front end. Pretty good indicator that he is underneath himself behind.
     
    11-15-2012, 12:11 AM
  #26
Showing
You can't tell that for sure though, DHW. The person taking the photo could have been at an angle... there are ALL sorts of tricks to make a horse appear to be a nicer mover than he/she is.
A horse's head can be in the "correct" place without the body being correct. The head can be down and jaw relaxed without the horse's body being engaged.

I stand by my statement that you cannot tell a horse's full body engagement from a headshot. Impossible, IMO.
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    11-15-2012, 12:18 AM
  #27
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt    
You can't tell that for sure though, DHW. The person taking the photo could have been at an angle... there are ALL sorts of tricks to make a horse appear to be a nicer mover than he/she is.
A horse's head can be in the "correct" place without the body being correct. The head can be down and jaw relaxed without the horse's body being engaged.

I stand by my statement that you cannot tell a horse's full body engagement from a headshot. Impossible, IMO.
Very true! I was just laughing with someone about a guy at our barn. He has a finished reining horse, which for all intensive purposes is better than my horse in terms of ability, however it's declining fast! The guy rides past me at a nice slow lope the other day and says 'now this is what you call collection' I nearly peed my pants trying not to laugh....he had a head set! As he went by you could not see the back of his saddle for the horses rump! Haha! This is the same guy that tried to slide this horse at a full run down with no sliders on.....
     
    11-15-2012, 12:36 AM
  #28
Showing
Deserthorsewoman - would love your thoughts on these images?
If you don't feel comfortable critiquing others' images, the last two are of my gelding (in the Grackle noseband).
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    11-15-2012, 01:28 AM
  #29
Trained
First of all, certainly all kinds of tricks are possible with a photo. I was only stating what I see, not taking into consideration the possibility of being tricked. I think I stated " assuming that he was brought up properly in the two rein". A properly trained future bridle horse in this stage is collected, not just pulled and forced in a frame.
Second, I might be too old school to be capable of commenting on modern dressage. But, I'll try
     
    11-15-2012, 01:47 AM
  #30
Trained
Apart from the chestnut, the bay and the second pic of your horse all have poll lower than crest if the neck. We call this "falscher Knick", means wrong fold, I guess it could be translated. No true collection.
The chestnut is most likely collected, though tense.
The first grey and the bay are in "Arbeitshaltung", working frame, but not in full collection. The second grey is a youngster and could definitely benefit from more forward downward before attempting to pull him together.
Your horse(good looking fella), is on his way, in a nice frame, but still should go forward a lot, not so much being held in that position. Danger of getting the "falscher Knick".

Again, I am old school, by no means a dressage judge, wouldn't want to be one and maybe have a different understanding of true collection.
AND im pretty sure you will post the complete pictures of above horses
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