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Good Examples of True Collection?

This is a discussion on Good Examples of True Collection? within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category
  • True collection versus over bent

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    11-15-2012, 04:13 AM
  #31
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt    
deserthorsewoman - would love your thoughts on these images?
If you don't feel comfortable critiquing others' images, the last two are of my gelding (in the Grackle noseband).
Most of them all over bent.
     
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    11-16-2012, 10:35 PM
  #32
Banned
JDI.....could you post the whole photos? I'm curious
     
    11-16-2012, 10:49 PM
  #33
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muppetgirl    
JDI.....could you post the whole photos? I'm curious
Sssssshhhhhhhhhh
     
    11-16-2012, 11:07 PM
  #34
Showing
THAT'S where this thread is! I couldn't remember where it was.. haha!


Quote:
Apart from the chestnut, the bay and the second pic of your horse all have poll lower than crest if the neck. We call this "falscher Knick", means wrong fold, I guess it could be translated. No true collection.
The chestnut is most likely collected, though tense.
The first grey and the bay are in "Arbeitshaltung", working frame, but not in full collection. The second grey is a youngster and could definitely benefit from more forward downward before attempting to pull him together.
Your horse(good looking fella), is on his way, in a nice frame, but still should go forward a lot, not so much being held in that position. Danger of getting the "falscher Knick".
*as a note - in lower level dressage, I prefer to see a "deep" headset, I.e. Poll below the level of the neck, not poll at the highest point*
*ANOTHER very IMPORTANT NOTE* All of the images I pulled were of horses in a working or extended trot. Working and extended trots require collection to be true and correct, HOWEVER none of them depict "collection" in the sense of a shorter, more elevated stride!!*

Your text in Italics, followed by my commentary in regards to frame:

1) "The chestnut is most likely collected, though tense."

The chestnut is probably one of the worst ones that I found in terms of being in a false frame/headset being important above moving through his body. He's completely inverted through his back, and his hind legs are completely out of sync with his front legs.

2) "The first grey is in "Arbeitshaltung", working frame, but not in full collection."

The grey is completely disconnected back to front.

3) "The first bay is in "Arbeitshaltung", working frame, but not in full collection."

I like this frame for this horse in a working trot - you can see the front end is elevated and he's working through his back. Probably the nicest out of all of them, IMO, when you consider frame needed for a working gait.

4) "The second grey is a youngster and could definitely benefit from more forward downward before attempting to pull him together."

The second best, IMO - working back to front, working through himself, tracking up and moving forwards - again, for a WORKING gait.

5) "Your horse(good looking fella), is on his way, in a nice frame, but still should go forward a lot, not so much being held in that position. Danger of getting the "falscher Knick".

Ronan is at a halt here, and definitely not engaged - haha. I think he was playing with the bit here, and not on contact.

6) "Your horse(good looking fella), is on his way, in a nice frame, but still should go forward a lot, not so much being held in that position. Danger of getting the "falscher Knick".

Working towards working properly. I would say we're 80% there in this photo. This is not "true" collection, as in getting him rocked on his haunches and elevated through the front. I'm pretty happy with the photo considering where we were at the time this photo was taken. Having said that, it is not a photo depicting collection as in shorter, more elevated strides.


**

In my opinion, we're very divided on this - I think our opinions were polar opposite on some of the horses. The worst one, IMO, was the chestnut (#1) - you said that he was the best, and IMO he's the worst of the batch.

As for my horse, he has a LONG way to go. He's very stiff and a difficult ride because he's very VERY lazy and VERY big, and it's VERY hard to get him forward while containing that forward motion in any sort of fashion without losing the forward.
Attached Images
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File Type: jpg extend2.jpg (79.4 KB, 104 views)
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File Type: jpg _DSC5365.jpg (76.7 KB, 103 views)
     
    11-16-2012, 11:15 PM
  #35
Banned
Thanks......interesting...
     
    11-16-2012, 11:17 PM
  #36
Trained
Im going to do one at a time, since I got a lot of scrolling to do.
The chestnut:
I said he is tense, which he is. I don't see any disconnect anywhere, I see enormous action up front, and his off the ground leg us not even at the highest point.
     
    11-16-2012, 11:23 PM
  #37
Trained
I also don't see any disconnect in the first grey. Both, the chestnut and the grey have big action IN FRONT. That seems to be the most important thing nowadays.
The bay is, as I said, in a nice working frame.
     
    11-16-2012, 11:34 PM
  #38
Trained
The second grey, I repeat what I first said. Could benefit from more downward work. The forward is there and the rider appears a bit reluctant to let him go.
Your horse(again, nice fella), is standing, which I saw, but wasn't sure enough to mention it due to the cut picture. He's looking good in the second pic, working from behind, not made tight in front, and once he gets himself more under himself he will elevate that front end and show more reach.

All in all, there is no point in arguing who is right or wrong. I see with different eyes, being a whole lot older than you, having gone through a different school with different goals. Read classical dressage. So if you talk about true collection I have, for example, a lippizan or Andalusian in mind who is really bending in the haunches, because he's built for it.

But, I enjoyed doing it, haven't done it in a long time
     
    11-17-2012, 12:02 AM
  #39
Showing
That's where you and I will disagree; I truly think that the chestnut is very disconnected back to front. Massive action up front, yes... but the hind leg is lagging behind. The back is hollow as well. The "big" action is in style right now for dressage, and it drives me nuts, because everyone focuses on the big flash up front and forget the hind end trailing behind.

Point blank, though, is that none of these horses are showing a shorter, more elevated step - I.e. "true" collection, which was the aim of this 'exercise' :)

Thank you for your words on my boy, I do appreciate it :) We're working on it.. slowly but surely... *sigh*
Kayty likes this.
     
    11-17-2012, 12:13 AM
  #40
Trained
So we do agree
You know, about 20 years ago, when I went to meet the breeders of my first Arab, they showed me some Hannoverians they were also breeding( it was near Hannover). One if the broodies had a trot to dream off...she literally "kicked the clouds out of the sky". Big difference to the modern dressage horses was that she was REALLY pushing from behind. I found it sad that she never competed. But, she produced outstanding foals and had state premium herself. Hard to find nowadays, even in Germany.
     

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