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Good Examples of True Collection?

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    11-17-2012, 12:25 AM
  #41
Super Moderator
This was a very interesting excersize. JDI really showed how important it is to see the whole body. I had thought , from the head shot only, that the dark bay was the best, ( and it is!), and the chestnut the next best. But, after seeing the whole body photos, I agree that the Chestnut does look like he is just flinging his front legs out and not pushing from a collected hind. I was fooled.
Very interesting!
     
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    11-17-2012, 12:33 AM
  #42
Showing
Tiny, it's VERY easy to be fooled by heads/headset. That's why I hate seeing posts about "how do I get my horse's head down?" instead of "how do I get my horse working through his body correctly?"
Headset is just that - you can have a pretty headset while the rest of the body is doing who-knows-what behind it, but if your horse is correct, the head will be correct.
Unfortunately, riders are told to "get his head down!" and that's all they concentrate on - they're told over and over "get the head down" so they link head down = good. Then the further connection is that head down is correct, and the most essential thing in a "frame." So much more to it than that. In my avatar, Ronan's head is down. He's learning to come off the forehand and use his back, but he isn't there yet - his head may be down, but he's not completely correct!
     
    11-17-2012, 12:45 AM
  #43
Showing
Here are some examples of "big moving" trots that I feel are relatively correct:









Why? The hind cannon bone and the front cannon bone of the legs that are elevated are at more or less the same angle, which means that the trot is synchronized, there's no break in the gait tempo.

A book that I found to be very *very* insightful is titled "Tug of War: Classical vs Modern Dressage"
     
    11-17-2012, 12:52 AM
  #44
Showing
Interesting links and images:


"GP in front, training level behind...."




"All front legs"


Un-engaged hindquarters but high frontlegs

::: Sustainable Dressage - Collection & Its Evasions - True Collection - What It Is and How to Achieve It :::
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    11-17-2012, 01:25 AM
  #45
Trained
Excellent examples, JDI. Look where the poll is, on the good ones as well as the bad examples.
So, I still say, to a certain extend, one CAN judge from a head/neck shot. If you look at all horses with an artificially achieved headset, you will see that the poll is NOT the highest point.
     
    11-17-2012, 08:57 PM
  #46
Banned
Hmmm all very interesting......I wish I could find a similar example directed towards reining....as you know our head set is low (not peanut rolling, and not near as low as WP) lots and lots of collection. I study my guy while I'm loping and trotting and I use the shadow (I KNOW!!) on the wall to tell me where his head is, or how vertical his face is, WHILE IM COLLECTED ON A LOOSE REIN.....so it's pick him up with my legs/spurs, first, then slowly pick up the reins and drive him in, release the reins but keep him up with my legs.....it's a constant pick up, put down, until he realizes I will always pick him up and put him back in frame to work, we are getting much more consistent and I can keep him there (or I mean, he stays there with minimal effort from me) for a good length of time ( he's super fit, I've worked up to this slowly) he stays vertical in the face or just in front of vertical most of the time while driving through with his back end!......you can't help but FEEL it!

The only time I've seen a reiner ridden with a high headset is when Anky got on and did some reining....haha I was disturbed! Too much cross discipline for me!!! Just like western dressage and the full contact in great big shank bits!!! Gulp!

Again.....I think it is a feel more than anything.....good example is all the photos of head sets.....
     
    11-18-2012, 07:02 PM
  #47
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustDressageIt    
Here are some examples of "big moving" trots that I feel are relatively correct:









Why? The hind cannon bone and the front cannon bone of the legs that are elevated are at more or less the same angle, which means that the trot is synchronized, there's no break in the gait tempo.

A book that I found to be very *very* insightful is titled "Tug of War: Classical vs Modern Dressage"

I just want to say that this post made me have a total mental "click." Thank you JDI!!
So would you always be looking for the same angle, no matter what tempo the trot is? How does that work the the walk and canter? I'm rather intrigued by this.
     
    11-19-2012, 09:36 PM
  #48
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by eventerwannabe    
How does that work the the walk and canter? I'm rather intrigued by this.
Since they are not diagonal gaits, it doesn't.
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    12-29-2012, 11:58 AM
  #49
Weanling
One of the best pix posted is http://www.classical-equitation.com/...din-piaffe.jpg He is one of the ten best trainers I have watched (a lot, in real time). Riding off the curb is a tradition showing the greatest of lightness (which few can show..let alone a horse which is up/open/with vertical forelegs). Dropping one rein has different purposes in training.

Certainly few riders de jour epitomize lightness since their curbs are always torqued or high collection or use of lateral work other than half pass (and some who try either cannot train them up the levels or end up with every one of their horses rearing).

Richard waetjen had one of the best seats/techniques of all time! https://www.google.com/search?q=rich...w=1140&bih=687
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    12-29-2012, 12:13 PM
  #50
Weanling
At ALL levels (IF we are to train by the FEI directives) the poll should ALWAYS be the highest point and the face more or less in front of the vertical. And too many riders think they can shortcut the system by manipulating the head/neck.

The fact is that IF the poll/neck is low (aka deep/etc) then the gaits WILL be impacted. (We only have to look at the pix posted). A shortened or low neck do not allow the hindlegs to properly step through, and affect straightness/impulsion/collectability/stride length/etc. (The preferred deep/round posture chosen by one poster reveals its impact in the posture in the halt.) Only if the horse is allowed to (initially) have steady steps in an up/open posture can it be active. Roundness comes over time, through use of figures and exercises. Allow a horse to be preciptiously flexed (or rounded by the hand early on) and the hindlegs become grounded early. (These are not my thoughts, but rather are directly from the rules which we should be properly following for progressive training.)

The sustainable dressage site is a good one to make 'picture statement' for greater understanding of progressive training.

Remember to that the forelegs will alway 'ground' where the nose points, if the neck is compressed or the horse vertical the forelegs will ground early (or in the most problematic of modern training the forelegs will jut out in front and be pulled back to land..ie Totilas). And when looking for proper balance, is the gait preserved (four beat regular walk, two beat trot with suspension, three beat canter with suspension, square closed halt).
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