The Highest Point Poll - Page 3
 
 

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The Highest Point Poll

This is a discussion on The Highest Point Poll within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category

     
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        09-13-2010, 08:56 AM
      #21
    Foal
    Hi RiderGirl:

    I love Anya Beran's book, I have read it about three times. :)
         
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        09-13-2010, 10:06 AM
      #22
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lthorse    
    Neither of these are examples of correct (by the FEI and USEF Rules) riding, but neither is an extreme case of wrong. This I think is a large part of the problem, riders have not been educated on how to assess the work, instructors, trainers and judges (who are supposed to be holding up these ideals) reward incorrect work and the cycle repeats itself.

    Rider 1: Poll ot quite the highest point-result: hollow back (look behind the saddle), look at the right diagonal...can you see how the left hind leg is not stepping under enough based on how far forward the right front has reached? Swishing tail is ALWAYS an indicator of an uncomfortable horse.

    Rider 2: Behind the vertical, probably due to the tight curb rein, swishing tail and overall a picture of a lack of relaxation.
    I would like to point out the your avatar picture which also shows on your website is a very poor example of correct positioning. I realize you wanted a more relaxed lower position but the head neck position is not only too low it is over bent and behind the vertical.

    In my first picture the rider is not a dressage rider but a hunter rider that was just allowing to horse to go forward. The horse was at a hunter show and warming up and we are talking about head positioning only.

    The second picture the horse is so very slightly behind that it would not be counted. Since I was there I can tell you the tail was not swishing but actually was very softly held throughout the entire demonstration. Be careful about commenting on areas that require an actual movement to make a qualified judgment.
         
        09-14-2010, 07:50 AM
      #23
    Foal
    Hi Spyder:

    I hope you do not misunderstand me. I am not putting myself forward as someone who is capable of always producing the ideals that the masters laid down. I realize how difficult it is to judge horse and rider from a photograph as it only represents a moment in time. The reason I began this thread was to open a dialogue about how true classical dressage is a dying art. It is my belief that our organizations (FEI, USEF,USDF) could be doing much more to insure that this does not happen. Thank you for commenting about my Avatar, I was wondering when someone would mention it. This photo (I will post the videos as well if I can) was taken 6 years ago with my young green mare at her first recognized show. We scored in the high 60's and low 70's in all of our tests, won every class and recieved a medal for high score for the weekend. While I was extremely proud of my girl, who I raised from a baby, for behaving like a perfect angel, the rides were tense and quick and the poll being the highest point was definitely the exception and not the rule. The judge never commented on any of those things. Had I not had an excellent trainer/mentor in Erik Herbermann, I would have just patted myself on the back and sought to repeat that performance in the future. Now while a photo only represents a moment in time, a video is more like a day in the life, the judge does not know that my horse was working far better at home than the video represented, her job is to assess what she sees before her eyes.
         
        09-14-2010, 08:09 AM
      #24
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lthorse    
    Hi Spyder:

    We scored in the high 60's and low 70's in all of our tests, won every class and recieved a medal for high score for the weekend. While I was extremely proud of my girl, who I raised from a baby, for behaving like a perfect angel, the rides were tense and quick and the poll being the highest point was definitely the exception and not the rule. The judge never commented on any of those things.

    Unfortunately since I stopped showing I have found scores that were way out of line to what I would recognize as good or bad rides and it pains me to see rides being rewarded for mediocre rides at best.

    I realize that one ride may be the best of the day and that judges should always think "I will give you a 10 so show me why you may get less" as opposed to "I will give you only a zero so show why I should go higher" but that does not mean that average performances deserve 60% scores or higher.

    If I rode a test as you described your horse I would be lucky to break 55. When I was competing getting every single percentage was like pulling teeth from good judges and impossible from biased ones. Even our Olympic riders found it difficult to break into the high 60's.
         
        09-14-2010, 11:32 AM
      #25
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Spyder    
    Unfortunately since I stopped showing I have found scores that were way out of line to what I would recognize as good or bad rides and it pains me to see rides being rewarded for mediocre rides at best.

    I realize that one ride may be the best of the day and that judges should always think "I will give you a 10 so show me why you may get less" as opposed to "I will give you only a zero so show why I should go higher" but that does not mean that average performances deserve 60% scores or higher.

    If I rode a test as you described your horse I would be lucky to break 55. When I was competing getting every single percentage was like pulling teeth from good judges and impossible from biased ones. Even our Olympic riders found it difficult to break into the high 60's.
    Yes but Spyder you cannot judge an entire test from a photo. Since you have gotten out of showing the quality of horses has gotten so much better. Even a really nice horse from 6 or 7 years ago that would have stood out in the ring as exceptional, now looks very mediocre against the new really nice horses. Even since I started showing my horse who looked exceptional at 5, now has been overshadowed by some of the horses that age and he's only 7.
    These days, the standard for a "good mark" is 65%+ and for an "exceptional mark" is 75%+. In my area, just purely because of the quality of horses being shown, if you are not near the 80% mark in training level, don't expect to win.

    The marks are not going up because the judges are being nicer, there is still a fair share of eliminated tests and scores in the 40% range. The marks are going up because of the increasing quality of horses and to some degree our training is getting better.

    PS. The Canadian WEG team still can barely crack 70%, except for their top rider.
         
        09-14-2010, 07:35 PM
      #26
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    Yes but Spyder you cannot judge an entire test from a photo.

    I agree nor did I say I am. Just as Ithorse cannot judge a tail swish unless its tail is very obviously flicked to the side.

    I may not be riding or judging anymore but I do go and see whats out there.

    The main difference I see is that the horses are not so much getting better but that more people throughout the world are getting access to the better quality horse.

    Some of the horses I see at the lower levels simply do not deserve scores that they are getting. This has nothing to do with the actual "quality" of the horse but how it is ridden. An exceptional horse ridden poorly does NOT deserve the 65-75 mark and the horse that's of nice quality that is ridden correctly with finesse DOES deserve this type of mark.

    Unfortunately this is not seen as often as it should. And even though I may be out of the competitive scene an half pass is still a half pass whether done by a super quality horse or a average horse and NO ONE should EVER feel that because another horse is better bred or more expensive is better than theirs.

    I got to where I ended up mainly because I held that as my truth and the "super quality horses" of my day were not always ridden correctly. This has been proven not just by me but for example...Seldom Seen proved it also.
         
        09-14-2010, 07:56 PM
      #27
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Spyder    
    I agree nor did I say I am. Just as Ithorse cannot judge a tail swish unless its tail is very obviously flicked to the side.

    I may not be riding or judging anymore but I do go and see whats out there.

    The main difference I see is that the horses are not so much getting better but that more people throughout the world are getting access to the better quality horse.

    Some of the horses I see at the lower levels simply do not deserve scores that they are getting. This has nothing to do with the actual "quality" of the horse but how it is ridden. An exceptional horse ridden poorly does NOT deserve the 65-75 mark and the horse that's of nice quality that is ridden correctly with finesse DOES deserve this type of mark.

    Unfortunately this is not seen as often as it should. And even though I may be out of the competitive scene an half pass is still a half pass whether done by a super quality horse or a average horse and NO ONE should EVER feel that because another horse is better bred or more expensive is better than theirs.

    I got to where I ended up mainly because I held that as my truth and the "super quality horses" of my day were not always ridden correctly. This has been proven not just by me but for example...Seldom Seen proved it also.
    So a good rider can't be riding a good horse? The increase in volume of good horses means that good and bad riders both are getting better horses. And yes a well bred, talented horse is very capable of a 40% under a bad rider, but under a good one?
    Yes a half pass is a half pass, but an expressive balanced half pass is worth more than a stick legged bent leg yield. And if a better bred and therefore more expensive horse is more capable of a balanced expressive half pass naturally then is it not worth more marks?
    The reason that horses are bred for dressage is to get the higher marks than horses not bred for dressage and if people are willing to pay ten or 100 times the price for a horse bred for dressage then that is what the horse is worth, is it not?
         
        09-14-2010, 08:48 PM
      #28
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    So a good rider can't be riding a good horse?
    That is a given and certainly a good rider can ride a good horse but my comparison was poor rider on good horse against good rider on a 'nice' horse.



    Quote:
    The increase in volume of good horses means that good and bad riders both are getting better horses. And yes a well bred, talented horse is very capable of a 40% under a bad rider, but under a good one?
    They will average themselves out but that is NOT my point.


    Quote:
    Yes a half pass is a half pass, but an expressive balanced half pass is worth more than a stick legged bent leg yield. And if a better bred and therefore more expensive horse is more capable of a balanced expressive half pass naturally then is it not worth more marks?
    A nice horse CAN be just as expressive as a well bed one. Breeding alone does NOT ensure the horse will put out.

    Quote:
    The reason that horses are bred for dressage is to get the higher marks than horses not bred for dressage and if people are willing to pay ten or 100 times the price for a horse bred for dressage then that is what the horse is worth, is it not?
    I wasn't comparing those bred for dressage against those not as far as who would get the better marks but I doubt that Lendon paid sums that are being asked for nowdays to get her extraordinary horse. The TB Keen was also not an expensive buy and I wouldn't be calling either one as being unable to do a less expressive half pass than the more expensive dressage bred.

    For sure I would not even recommend any client to go out and get a Connamera expecting it to end up like Seldom Seen but to say that only the best bred and most expensive can produce the expressive needs of dressage is just as much as a fallacy as saying any old plug will do high level dressage to standards.

    My point here is that certainly a better bred horse SHOULD give you a head start but training and riding are part of the package also.
         
        09-19-2010, 03:34 PM
      #29
    Weanling
    Check these out
    Attached Images
    File Type: jpg 1157448909nuno2.jpg (21.7 KB, 74 views)
    File Type: jpg #1 podhajsky.jpg (9.3 KB, 73 views)
         
        09-19-2010, 04:33 PM
      #30
    Weanling
    Okay, I've gotten quite muddled here... but I've looked at the pictures linked, and the 2 posted above, and what I see is: the "modern" look is powerful, with a strong sense of control; but the older pictures show horses who are full of freedom, and they make my heart sing. The newer look, the horse seems to be more concentrated on the rider; where in the "older look" the horses seem to be looking out at the world.

    I think somewhere along the line the breeding of these gorgeous, huge-moving, strong horses has made control more of an issue? Whereas with "lesser bred" horses, every bit of energy is to be cherished, and the freedom of the poll is allowed.
         

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