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Lightness and power.

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  • Dressage how to develop lightness

 
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    11-25-2010, 12:54 AM
  #21
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLastUnicorn    
I'm just curious, but if the training pyramid is wrong... then how SHOULD it be?
Well, I was schooled that the pyramid should begin with relaxation. This means that the muscle structure of the horse should not contain any constraints. Then comes the connection, this connection is not predicated upon either the rider or the horse 'taking' the bit, but rather upon the vibrate, hold, release connection between the rider's hand and the bit. Now one can work on the rhythm aspect of the gaits. After acquiring the rhythm one proceeds to the impulsion, rising the back, thoroughly engaging the hindquarter. Then collection comes into the picture.

Notice I left out straightness. This begins at the start and continues throughout the schooling process. Straightness is the trunk of the schooling tree.
     
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    11-25-2010, 01:10 AM
  #22
Weanling
Talking Tsk, tsk

So how much time did you spend reading? You apparently did not really read much. For I have written things independent of others, and as for quoting other sources, that is quite standard in journalizm.............and I wonder from where do you get your information, from out of the blue, by magic or do you read?

As for positive contribution, you state your opinion and that is fine. But I disagree with you and that is intolerable. I have numerous individuals who do agree with me so your negative input is neither here nor there.

The FEI Rules of Dressage are predicated upon allowing the horse to do the movements...anything other than that presentation is incorrect. Tsk, tsk, if you have a problem with that then work to have FEI degenerate the rules so they fit your standards.

Lightness does not create correctness as demonstrated by the videos posted. The presentation was very eye opening for some, however, if correctness is what dressage is about, then the presentation is lacking.
"On the bit" has a clearly stipulated presentation of the head and neck, if that is not presented then the movements are incorrect and not fulfilled.

The rules are not dependent upon the spirit of them and their applications do not have variables. The rules are STIPULATED and therefore are mandated as the prerequistes for the completion of the movements as described.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder    
All I see from you in virtually every post is quotes from various OTHER sources on meanings and correctness ( in your opinion) of what has been written.

Most of us have the intelligence to know or ability to look up these sources ourselves so unless you can come up with something original from you or a DETAILED explanation of your position I cannot in good faith take anything you say at face value. I did look at your websites in your signature and there too I found nothing original but a lot of quotes from other sources with opinions that have no back up or understanding.

Just a note...anyone that has a good memory and the rule book can call themselves "an authority" on those rules however these people will never understand the spirit behind them or understand their proper applications.

It is too bad that you cannot contribute something positive to this topic.
     
    11-25-2010, 10:57 AM
  #23
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by spirithorse8    
So how much time did you spend reading? You apparently did not really read much. For I have written things independent of others, and as for quoting other sources, that is quite standard in journalism.............and I wonder from where do you get your information, from out of the blue, by magic or do you read?
Read your websites and found nothing other than quotes and very little else..so yes I do read.

Quote:
As for positive contribution, you state your opinion and that is fine. But I disagree with you and that is intolerable. I have numerous individuals who do agree with me so your negative input is neither here nor there.
Couldn't care less if you agree or not but clearly you find my opinion intolerable by what you post.

Quote:
The FEI Rules of Dressage are predicated upon allowing the horse to do the movements...anything other than that presentation is incorrect. Tsk, tsk, if you have a problem with that then work to have FEI degenerate the rules so they fit your standards.
Never had a problem working under those rules when I competed nor when I judged.

Quote:
Lightness does not create correctness as demonstrated by the videos posted.
No videos presented on this thread.

Quote:
The presentation was very eye opening for some, however, if correctness is what dressage is about, then the presentation is lacking.
"On the bit" has a clearly stipulated presentation of the head and neck, if that is not presented then the movements are incorrect and not fulfilled.
See the problem with your strict interpretation is that everything will not fit into a nice neat mold like you seem to want it. Thank God for diversity.

Quote:
The rules are not dependent upon the spirit of them and their applications do not have variables. The rules are STIPULATED and therefore are mandated as the prerequisites for the completion of the movements as described.
You need that ghost writer again.

Anyways rules are made by people, competed under by people and horses and judged by people and heaven forbid if every one of them is a cookie cutter of everyone else.

Dressage would be so dead if every animal ( and human) were carbon copies of each other.

Every horse will comform to the rules according to their disposition and conformation and a judge will judge each combination to coming as CLOSE to their interpertation of what is expected at whatever level is being judged. NO horse/person is perfect and too bad you have to live among all us imperfect people/horse eh?
     
    11-25-2010, 11:26 AM
  #24
Weanling
Simply put Spyder, you are a perfect example of what is wrong with dressage today. No more need be said. Have a great Thanksgiving!
     
    11-25-2010, 11:27 AM
  #25
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by spirithorse8    
Well, I was schooled that the pyramid should begin with relaxation. This means that the muscle structure of the horse should not contain any constraints. Then comes the connection, this connection is not predicated upon either the rider or the horse 'taking' the bit, but rather upon the vibrate, hold, release connection between the rider's hand and the bit. Now one can work on the rhythm aspect of the gaits. After acquiring the rhythm one proceeds to the impulsion, rising the back, thoroughly engaging the hindquarter. Then collection comes into the picture.

Notice I left out straightness. This begins at the start and continues throughout the schooling process. Straightness is the trunk of the schooling tree.
Ah, sorry, you meant that particular training pyramid... I thought you were referring to the concept of the training scale.

While straightness should be a part of everyday training, it is something that not all horses are capable of right away. I do believe it has it's place in the training scale, though I will admit it should, perhaps, be a little earlier than where most scales put it.

Being perfectly straight - where the horse pushes off evenly from both hinds, they track perfectly straight, and can maintain such straightness for more than a couple of strides is not something I'd worry about it a green horse or even an "average" horse. Since most horses are uneven, physically, to start with, it stands to reason that they will need to build up the strength and flexibility to do so - which is, I'm guessing, the reason it's placed "higher" in the pyramid.

I was taught the following :
Relaxation
Rhythm
Contact
Impulsion
Straightness
Collection

On the surface there isn't anything I really "disagree" with as far as that scale goes... but I find the circle concept to be very appealing to me.

Spirit, I find your ideas interesting - perhaps you'd be willing to share some riding photos or video of you working so I can better understand what it is you're trying to say... ?
     
    11-25-2010, 11:33 AM
  #26
Weanling
The circle concept is far more horse oriented!
The pyramid is rider oriented!

As for a video....I am working on how to present it...a story board must come first and that is so hard. I do not wish to be a saleman pitching stuff, rather I wish to present a educational video on why versus why, how versus how, so that the viewer is given the opportunity to view the changes that occur. By spring I hope to have it available.
     
    11-25-2010, 11:54 AM
  #27
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by spirithorse8    
Simply put Spyder, you are a perfect example of what is wrong with dressage today. No more need be said. Have a great Thanksgiving!

LOL

Now that is the funniest thing you have said so far. Too bad your gift for gab failed you this time.
     
    11-27-2010, 02:02 PM
  #28
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by spirithorse8    
Well, I was schooled that the pyramid should begin with relaxation. This means that the muscle structure of the horse should not contain any constraints. Then comes the connection, this connection is not predicated upon either the rider or the horse 'taking' the bit, but rather upon the vibrate, hold, release connection between the rider's hand and the bit. Now one can work on the rhythm aspect of the gaits. After acquiring the rhythm one proceeds to the impulsion, rising the back, thoroughly engaging the hindquarter. Then collection comes into the picture.

Notice I left out straightness. This begins at the start and continues throughout the schooling process. Straightness is the trunk of the schooling tree.
How very disappointing. I honestly did want to hear how you were going to revolutionize the world of dressage and sadly, only when really harassed/pushed you had only ^^ this to say. Yet this is really not at all different from the training scales presented in the OP.

Could you (please) clearly and concisely give examples of why the training scale is wrong and how you think it needs to be corrected? And you like to comment that there are impolite posts on here yet I cannot help but notice that you could not refrain from insulting someone. It is ok to disagree but you don't need to tell someone they are a shining example of what is wrong (even though we all know Spyder couldn't possibly care less). I also strongly agree with MIE, that it would be nice to see your accomplishments in the dressage world. No, you don't have to be a master but you do have to have done SOMETHING in order to profess that yours is *the way* and all others are mixed up and wrong.
     
    11-27-2010, 07:01 PM
  #29
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by tealamutt    
Yet this is really not at all different from the training scales presented in the OP.
Could you (please) clearly and concisely give examples of why the training scale is wrong and how you think it needs to be corrected?
Ah, but it is very different...here are the meanings of the pyramid and one can clearly see that I do not school in the same format.

Conventional pyramid:
Rhythm: movement with a regular succession of strong and weak elements
Relaxation: the act of becoming less stiff or rigid, less tense or anxious
Connection: the act of connecting
Impulsion: the change of momentum produced by any force
Collection: see the Article 417

My pyramid:
Relaxation: the act of becoming less stiff or rigid, less tense or anxious
Connection: the act of connecting
Rhythm: movement with a regular succession of strong and weak elements
Impulsion: the change of momentum produced by any force
Collection: see the Article 417

Examing the majority of GP presentations in dressage, clearly demonstrates that the foundation of the training pyramid has been comprimised into non-rhythmic gaits. This is due to the fact that the second level of relaxation has disappeared from the horse, as the neck/shouldr muscle structures of GP horses are rigid and do not demonstrate suppleness nor flexion of the poll. The connection between the hand and the bit by the rider is not soft as described in the rules, and the curb has become the primary bit of contact in violation of the rules.
The impulsion, which should be thrust from the hindquarters, must be distributed into the forehand, but alas that is not what is being presented, as there is less extension of the forehand than the hindquarter.
Collection, according to Article 417, is not being fulfilled, as the horse cannot commit its entire muscle structure to engagement and lightness when the neck/shoulder muscles are constrained in the overbent and behind the vertical standardized carriage presented.

I advocate begin the process with relaxation and maintain this relaxation throughout the entire 'pyramid. The reason that relaxation is the primary foundation is the muscles require relaxation in order to operate at maximum capacity and release. Connection is then taught to the horse, a connection of asking and releasing not demanding and forcing with constant bit pressures. Once the horse accepts the LIGHT connection and is relaxed while schooling, I can now work on teaching rhythm...of course the horse knows natural rhythm but now must learn concentrated rhythm and this is accomplished with the LIGHT connection of the aids in the rhythm being sought. Now I can ask the horse for impulsion, an impulsion that is relaxed, rhythmic, and connected in LIGHTNESS.
Collection is the last phase I teach and is the only phase at the same spot as in the conventional pyramid. The results I achieve though at collection, are unconstrained with the horse in self carriage and thoroughly engaged and with balanced equal strides.
     
    11-27-2010, 10:56 PM
  #30
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by spirithorse8    
Ah, but it is very different...here are the meanings of the pyramid and one can clearly see that I do not school in the same format.

Conventional pyramid:
Rhythm: movement with a regular succession of strong and weak elements
Relaxation: the act of becoming less stiff or rigid, less tense or anxious
Connection: the act of connecting
Impulsion: the change of momentum produced by any force
Collection: see the Article 417

My pyramid:
Relaxation: the act of becoming less stiff or rigid, less tense or anxious
Connection: the act of connecting
Rhythm: movement with a regular succession of strong and weak elements
Impulsion: the change of momentum produced by any force
Collection: see the Article 417

Examing the majority of GP presentations in dressage, clearly demonstrates that the foundation of the training pyramid has been comprimised into non-rhythmic gaits. This is due to the fact that the second level of relaxation has disappeared from the horse, as the neck/shouldr muscle structures of GP horses are rigid and do not demonstrate suppleness nor flexion of the poll. The connection between the hand and the bit by the rider is not soft as described in the rules, and the curb has become the primary bit of contact in violation of the rules.
The impulsion, which should be thrust from the hindquarters, must be distributed into the forehand, but alas that is not what is being presented, as there is less extension of the forehand than the hindquarter.
Collection, according to Article 417, is not being fulfilled, as the horse cannot commit its entire muscle structure to engagement and lightness when the neck/shoulder muscles are constrained in the overbent and behind the vertical standardized carriage presented.

I advocate begin the process with relaxation and maintain this relaxation throughout the entire 'pyramid
. The reason that relaxation is the primary foundation is the muscles require relaxation in order to operate at maximum capacity and release. Connection is then taught to the horse, a connection of asking and releasing not demanding and forcing with constant bit pressures. Once the horse accepts the LIGHT connection and is relaxed while schooling, I can now work on teaching rhythm...of course the horse knows natural rhythm but now must learn concentrated rhythm and this is accomplished with the LIGHT connection of the aids in the rhythm being sought. Now I can ask the horse for impulsion, an impulsion that is relaxed, rhythmic, and connected in LIGHTNESS.
Collection is the last phase I teach and is the only phase at the same spot as in the conventional pyramid. The results I achieve though at collection, are unconstrained with the horse in self carriage and thoroughly engaged and with balanced equal strides.
And how, pray tell, do you develop this relaxation?

Personally I find that as soon as we as riders and ultimately trainers of our horses are able to be still and balanced in the tack and ride the horse in a balanced rhythm, the horse begins to relax into the rhythm. Much like how a child reacts to a rhythmic rocking, or how marathon runners maintain a rhythm to utilize the pendulum like swinging of the legs so they can relax muscles and facilitate running long distances. This would be why in the German scale, rhythm is before relaxation.

I am also unclear as to how one can create a connection over the back when the horse is not balanced in a rhythm?? Balance is the first, very basic step in training and it's major characteristic is that the horse is able to move rhythmically. A horse cannot move rhythmically if his balance is shifted over one leg or another. A horse also cannot connect over the back when he is unbalanced. This would be why in the German scale, rhythm also comes before contact and schwung.
     

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