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post #31 of 51 Old 11-27-2010, 10:47 PM
Weanling
 
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I must ask...does the horse not know balance?
I must ask...does the horse not know rhythm?
I must ask...does the horse not know connection of its body{over the back}

I do not make light of what you have said. For you raise the same questions others ask and then point to either the German or the French school. What makes a particular schooling method the one and only perfect methodology?

We are the cause of the horses losing balance, faltering at the rhythm....etc.

A dancer cannot attain rhythm without relaxation. The mind and the body must be in a relaxed state in order for true suppleness to be present within the muscle structure.
The same is true of the horse. If the horse tenses then it cannot operate its muscle structures correctly. So relaxation is the foundation to creating balance and rhythm.

I ask the horse and allow the horse to make decisions regarding the follow through. I do not demand and force the horse. The a/a lets the horse remain relaxed while the d/f forces the horse into tension and resistance.

E. Allan Buck
"Ask and allow, do not demand and force"
www.hartetoharte.org
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post #32 of 51 Old 11-27-2010, 11:06 PM
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I am in agreement with Anebel- rhythm is how a horse finds relaxation. I have ridden in two clinics recently with a trainer who feels strongly that relaxation and balance belong very low on the pyramid. The first clinic (also my first dressage lesson) was largely spent with me letting my seat move with the horse's rhythm. He found relaxation and so I found relaxation. The second I started trying to control too much she would say "rhythm" and I would start to ride with him again and again, we found a lovely relaxed place.

Also couldn't help but notice your revolutionary pyramid basically reversed two steps. Again, disappointing. I would also argue that it seems you think this pyramid is forced (your word) upon the horse, which any good dressage rider will tell you is impossible. You try to force something upon the horse and the result is a nervous, stiff horse. Certainly not the supple, through, compliant rides you see at upper levels.

Last edited by tealamutt; 11-27-2010 at 11:09 PM.
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post #33 of 51 Old 11-28-2010, 12:59 PM
Yearling
 
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I'm going to vote for relaxation first and foremost, for the same reason we begin horses on the ground to accept us without fear, and to start, at least, to put their trust in us. Because thinking creatures don't think well when stressed, or un-relaxed. I'd like to note that training schemes assume expert riding. They aren't, as far as I can tell, built towards training the rider; which could make a difference in one's own personal schemes. (Not to criticise this, just something to take note of: in the real world, our own abilities must be considered in our training methods.)
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post #34 of 51 Old 11-28-2010, 01:12 PM
Weanling
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tealamutt View Post
Also couldn't help but notice your revolutionary pyramid basically reversed two steps. Again, disappointing. I would also argue that it seems you think this pyramid is forced (your word) upon the horse, which any good dressage rider will tell you is impossible. .
You can be disappointed all you want. The simple fact is that you do not see the relevancy of the changes.

I never said the pyramid is forced, once again you did not see what I wrote. So here is the sum total of ask versus demand - - -RIDERS FORCE THE HORSES INTO THE FRAMES

And that is quite obvious from the incorrect collected frames presented.

E. Allan Buck
"Ask and allow, do not demand and force"
www.hartetoharte.org
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post #35 of 51 Old 11-28-2010, 07:32 PM
Showing
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spirithorse8 View Post
Simply put Spyder, you are a perfect example of what is wrong with dressage today.
Wow! That's a pretty blunt statement should I say.

Just a reminder here: Please, remember etiquette policy!

Now to the conversation... I haven't seen my dressage trainer to FORCE horses into frame. Moreover my mare would NOT let her do that by bucking her off (been there seen that with other instructor). Yet she was obviously relaxed and trying for her even though the trainer asked for something she wasn't used to.
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post #36 of 51 Old 11-28-2010, 08:30 PM
Weanling
 
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Have not seen your instructor or you on your horse so I do not know how much bit pressure is being applied.
Bit pressure is force, especially if it is not released and even more so when the bit pressures are above two pounds.

Definition of FORCE
1) : strength or energy exerted or brought to bear

E. Allan Buck
"Ask and allow, do not demand and force"
www.hartetoharte.org
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post #37 of 51 Old 11-28-2010, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spirithorse8 View Post
Have not seen your instructor or you on your horse so I do not know how much bit pressure is being applied.
Bit pressure is force, especially if it is not released and even more so when the bit pressures are above two pounds.
Spirit, I have no problem showing my pretty face... So here is my thread - you can check it out. Under new dressage instructor...

Unfortunately can't give the video of my trainer (as I didn't have camcorder that only time she rode my mare), but as I said, my horse (that didn't know what contact is that time as I rode with completely loopy reins) would buck her off right on spot if she didn't like what the trainer did. Still the trainer was able to ask her to come to the bit and she looked happy and relaxed. Seeing that and knowing my horse (which I had since she was a yearling, was broke by me, and noone but me rides her except may be 4 or 5 times in her whole life) I just can NOT believe in all those scary things you state here.
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post #38 of 51 Old 11-28-2010, 11:12 PM
Weanling
 
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Like what I saw on your video.....on observation...it appeared that your right stirrup was longer...could be the saddle had shifted...I know of that happening to me.

I am glad for you and your horse that you have a 'good' trainer.
However, over the years the majority of trainers I have observed are just not on the same page as your trainer.

That is to say there are a lot of trainers and riders who do not force horses, however, they are not in the majority. This is apparent in the frames being presented in winning national and international GP dressage events.

E. Allan Buck
"Ask and allow, do not demand and force"
www.hartetoharte.org

Last edited by spirithorse8; 11-28-2010 at 11:16 PM.
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post #39 of 51 Old 11-28-2010, 11:51 PM
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Spirit I looked at your websites. Remember that the internet is a visual medium. There are no pictures anywhere on either site of a dressage horse being ridden correctly by someone affiliated with you by choice. In fact, on the hartetoharte.org page, there is a picture of the grey in your avatar being ridden... very badly. It is a testament to the nature of the horse that it is moving so well, and in no way can be attributed to the rider's apparent skill (or lack thereof). On the federationofthehorse.org site, the only picture that looks at all affiliated with you or the page is the banner pic, and correct me if I am wrong, isn't that a bitted horse that is overbent?

I don't claim to be in any way an expert. In fact, in terms of dressage at a higher level, I am below even being a beginner. I am more than willing to back that up with pictures of me riding, bless the dear horses that put up with me. Where is your proof of your revolutionary way to ride?

Mods, grant me the serenity to see the opinions I cannot change, courage to change the ones that should change, and the wisdom to spot the trolls.
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post #40 of 51 Old 11-29-2010, 12:10 AM
Weanling
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiilaa View Post
In fact, on the hartetoharte.org page, there is a picture of the grey in your avatar being ridden... very badly. It is a testament to the nature of the horse that it is moving so well, and in no way can be attributed to the rider's apparent skill (or lack thereof).
Well, if you are referencing the cavalletti image, you are really off base with your statement. This image was reviewed by several individuals who examined the horse's frame and found that the rider was aiding the frame of the horse. The position of the rider is not normal by todays riders and that is because todays riders choose to suspend themselves forward on the horse.
The only thing wrong with the image is the rider's head being turned downward looking at the shoulders of the horse.
I dare say you could do better? Do you ride cavalletti?
The majority of riders today do not even know how to ride cavallletti.

P.S. By the way, can you ride using a race exercise saddle? That is what is being used in the image.

E. Allan Buck
"Ask and allow, do not demand and force"
www.hartetoharte.org

Last edited by spirithorse8; 11-29-2010 at 12:13 AM.
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