Lightness and power. - Page 5
 
 

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Lightness and power.

This is a discussion on Lightness and power. within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category

     
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        11-29-2010, 01:25 AM
      #41
    Trained
    As I said in my post, I don't claim to be able to ride dressage well at all. I do ride cavalletti, but not in grids yet.

    In that picture, the rider isn't merely looking down at the horse's shoulder. Their back is hunched over, which is dropping thier shoulders. Their legs are thrust forward, decreasing the solidness of their seat. And they are sitting too far back, which is not helping the horse balance.

    I don't care if it's the saddle that is causing it. The internet is almost entirely visual. I can't tell much at all about the saddle from that picture, how do I as a casual observer know that? All I see is a badly positioned rider. This is what you are presenting.

    My point was that you make all these claims, but have nothing to show it. The pictures you use are not facilitating your claims. Nor do they even offer to illustrate 'horse centred' riding.
         
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        11-29-2010, 08:14 AM
      #42
    Showing
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by spirithorse8    
    I am glad for you and your horse that you have a 'good' trainer.
    However, over the years the majority of trainers I have observed are just not on the same page as your trainer.

    That is to say there are a lot of trainers and riders who do not force horses, however, they are not in the majority. This is apparent in the frames being presented in winning national and international GP dressage events.
    Spirit, I'm not arguing a minute with you that there are trainers (and riders) who force horse into submission (frame, head set, etc.). But that's very true in any discipline, not just dressage (look at some western trainers!). But as you said there are plenty who are nice, gentle, consistent, and keep horse happy. I truly think the majority of horses and riders are like that, the forceful ones are more like exception.
         
        11-29-2010, 10:17 AM
      #43
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by spirithorse8    
    I must ask...does the horse not know balance?
    I must ask...does the horse not know rhythm?
    I must ask...does the horse not know connection of its body{over the back}

    I do not make light of what you have said. For you raise the same questions others ask and then point to either the German or the French school. What makes a particular schooling method the one and only perfect methodology?

    We are the cause of the horses losing balance, faltering at the rhythm....etc.

    A dancer cannot attain rhythm without relaxation. The mind and the body must be in a relaxed state in order for true suppleness to be present within the muscle structure.
    The same is true of the horse. If the horse tenses then it cannot operate its muscle structures correctly. So relaxation is the foundation to creating balance and rhythm.

    I ask the horse and allow the horse to make decisions regarding the follow through. I do not demand and force the horse. The a/a lets the horse remain relaxed while the d/f forces the horse into tension and resistance.
    Does the horse not know piaffe, passage, tempis??

    Then what is the point of dressage??

    My question still stands. How do you relax a tense horse before you go to work?
         
        11-29-2010, 01:25 PM
      #44
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
    Does the horse not know piaffe, passage, tempis??

    Then what is the point of dressage??

    My question still stands. How do you relax a tense horse before you go to work?
    Give it a massage... some aromatherapy... and maybe take it to a sauna?

    In all seriousness, I think what might be very helpful are some photos or video of spirithorse DEMONSTRATING what he's talking about. Just words aren't working, I'm still a bit confused, as are (apparently) most of those reading.

    The concept of the pyramid was not that once you "pass" one achievement you just ignore it from then on... far from it, you are supposed to "add" them all together to get the end result. (or so I was taught)

    So... I really think a great demonstration from spirithorse might clear up what is either a miscommunication, or enlighten us all to a "new" way of riding. (new is in quotes, because I don't think there's much anyone does with a horse that has NEVER been done before)
         
        11-30-2010, 04:09 PM
      #45
    Weanling
    Then what is the point of dressage??
    That is always a good question to ask oneself...why are we doing this? Is it to teach movements? Or is it therapeutic? Or to have fun and Win? Whichever is your priority, it's good to remember that others may have different priorities; surely we can agree to disagree on some of this.

    My question still stands. How do you relax a tense horse before you go to work?
    There are many, many ways! It's what groundwork addresses, first and foremost, as far as I'm concerned. I think your method is close to lunging-till-exhaustion? Trot until you feel a "ralaxation"? I'm not saying it won't work, as it's worked for you, but I'd prefer a horse that hasn't been brought down by fatigue.

    I think much of our disagreement is in the level of relaxation: one doesn't expect to put your horse to sleep before mounting up. Nevertheless, I do see (and I've done this myself) where a rider wants to get on with it, but her horse is so upset he's not only completely inattentive, but dangerous. Nowadays, I try to avoid dangerous riding.
         
        11-30-2010, 04:29 PM
      #46
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Beling    
    Then what is the point of dressage??
    That is always a good question to ask oneself...why are we doing this? Is it to teach movements? Or is it therapeutic? Or to have fun and Win? Whichever is your priority, it's good to remember that others may have different priorities; surely we can agree to disagree on some of this.

    My question still stands. How do you relax a tense horse before you go to work?
    There are many, many ways! It's what groundwork addresses, first and foremost, as far as I'm concerned. I think your method is close to lunging-till-exhaustion? Trot until you feel a "ralaxation"? I'm not saying it won't work, as it's worked for you, but I'd prefer a horse that hasn't been brought down by fatigue.

    I think much of our disagreement is in the level of relaxation: one doesn't expect to put your horse to sleep before mounting up. Nevertheless, I do see (and I've done this myself) where a rider wants to get on with it, but her horse is so upset he's not only completely inattentive, but dangerous. Nowadays, I try to avoid dangerous riding.
    "Assumptions make an ass of you and me." - Quote from my 8th grade English teacher.

    No, I don't run my horses down to get them to relax. Ride rhythmically and it relaxes the horse, as per the German scale. To ride rhythmically one does not have to go lap upon lap around the arena until the horse is exausted. One simply has to ride in balance and influence the balance of the horse until he is in a rhythm. This "system" or "pattern" naturally relaxes the horse because they are a creature of habit.
    I also hate lunging horses. If they're broke, they shouldn't need to be lunged. Not only is it boring as watching paint dry, it's hard on their joints, tendons and ligaments. Not to mention my diziness center.


    The point of dressage, in it's classical form, is not to teach the horse. It knows rhythm, it knows cadence, it knows all the Grand Prix already. The point is to train the horse to do these things with the added weight of the rider, and on the rider's aids. Whether it's Muffy out in the field on her 35 year old standardbred or a competetive dressage rider looking to the international arena, the goal of dressage is not to teach the horse anything but rather train him under a rider.
         
        11-30-2010, 06:18 PM
      #47
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TheLastUnicorn    
    The concept of the pyramid was not that once you "pass" one achievement you just ignore it from then on... far from it, you are supposed to "add" them all together to get the end result. (or so I was taught)
    Perfect description of what is lacking in the presentations of GP tests.
    The GP tests clearly demonstrate that their end result of high collection loses the other parts of the pyramid.

    The riders are tense in the body and that is clearly visible, this is felt by the horse and compounded by the tense aids administerd by the rider.

    So relaxation is missing...the horses are not relaxed, nor supple, especially in the neck/shoulder muscle structure. That is because of the pressures exerted by the rider upon the bit/bits aids and the tension the rider may be dealing with.

    Relaxation starts with the state of mind of the rider....a mind that is clear, a body that is soft and supple....a rider willing to release the horse rather than keeping the bearing hold. This simply means that the rider must be fluid in the motion of the body and the aids. That is huge word to implement.
         
        11-30-2010, 11:20 PM
      #48
    Yearling
    [QUOTE=~*~anebel~*~;
    Ride rhythmically and it relaxes the horse, as per the German scale. To ride rhythmically one does not have to go lap upon lap around the arena until the horse is exausted. One simply has to ride in balance and influence the balance of the horse until he is in a rhythm. .[/QUOTE]
    Love this explanation.
    This thread cracks me up.

    So much great info here....thanks Spyder for kicking it off for us all.
    Hp
         
        11-30-2010, 11:48 PM
      #49
    Yearling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by spirithorse8    
    Perfect description of what is lacking in the presentations of GP tests.
    The GP tests clearly demonstrate that their end result of high collection loses the other parts of the pyramid.

    The riders are tense in the body and that is clearly visible, this is felt by the horse and compounded by the tense aids administerd by the rider.

    So relaxation is missing...the horses are not relaxed, nor supple, especially in the neck/shoulder muscle structure. That is because of the pressures exerted by the rider upon the bit/bits aids and the tension the rider may be dealing with.

    Relaxation starts with the state of mind of the rider....a mind that is clear, a body that is soft and supple....a rider willing to release the horse rather than keeping the bearing hold. This simply means that the rider must be fluid in the motion of the body and the aids. That is huge word to implement.
    Tells me NOT that the training scale is incorrect, but that most riders are not following it properly, and are, in fact, skipping steps.

    Am I understanding you correctly that you feel the use of a bit is the main problem in lacking relaxation? If so, I also disagree with that... humans have been riding horses for centuries with bits, and many of those achieved relaxation just fine with them too... that is how the training scale was developed - by people riding and training their horses for high levels of collection, in the truest sense.

    I will say that I do not believe a bit is NECESSARY to get high levels of collection... but I also won't give credence to the thought that the bit is what prevents the "modern dressage horse" from achieving complete, correct collection, it goes so far beyond that.
         
        12-01-2010, 12:09 AM
      #50
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TheLastUnicorn    
    Am I understanding you correctly that you feel the use of a bit is the main problem in lacking relaxation? .....but I also won't give credence to the thought that the bit is what prevents the "modern dressage horse" from achieving complete, correct collection, it goes so far beyond that.
    If you have read my postings here on the forum, you will know that I do not say the use of the bit is the main problem; what I have said is that the misuse of the bit is the problem. I do believe in less is more, simply because it removes the ability to create greater forces upon the horse, so I am against the use of the double bridle.

    The absence of correct collection does go far beyond the use of the bit/bits, it goes smack dab into the lap of the trainers and riders who cannot ride without being dependent upon the bit/bits.

    I was schooled in the beginning to never take hold of the bit nor allow the horse to take hold of the bit for any period longer than a minute. I was taught to vibrate the bit, slight soft hold then release.
    Amazingly the horses become very responsive to NOT have my hands in their mouths ala the the bit/bits.
         

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