Peta is hooking onto Dressage - Totilas - Page 3 - The Horse Forum

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post #21 of 36 Old 10-23-2012, 02:34 AM
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As I said before some disruption, I am interested, and impressed to some degree, that peta has selected such a prominant figure to launch this claim against. It has certainly made people look up and take notice, and honestly, this would have to be one of their less crazy and really fairly logical wars on cruelty (far more so than saving goldfish kept in bowls!!!).
If not the rolkur, certainly the confinement issue.
I'm really not a fan of PETA but I'm keen to see how this goes and wish them the best in this endeavour.

(Completely off topic but...keeping goldfish in bowls is actually very cruel, and more harmful to the animal than rollkur - they are a "messy" fish that has the potential to grow quite large and a single 4in adult goldfish should live in a min 8gal (30L) tank. Skinnier fish types of the same length can live in about half that, but the bigger the better really or the ammonia buildup is too much for even a big filter. That's why so many goldfish don't live as long as they should, which is ~15 years. From a former hobby aquarist .)
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post #22 of 36 Old 10-23-2012, 04:49 AM
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Dressage was the one animal sport that I thought would be free of Peta. (Just for the record - I'm not a fan of them. They take things way too far. I believe I heard at one point that they were putting down animals to save them from the cruelty of being 'owned'...)

Cross country, steeplechase, racing, jumping... I can see their arguments with that. Dressage not so much, although I do wonder myself whether some of the maneuvers do put unnecessary strain on the horses. But still, trying to enforce something like rolkur isn't the same as enforcing soring or whipping. I'm sorry, but I just don't see how it is possible. If Peta wins, they'll still have a battle on their hands to make people obey. Like what has been said, what goes on in the privacy of a barn is beyond anyone's control.

They sure are hitting it hard though, going for the big names.

As for the confinement of the stallion... I find that cruel. I've visited some of the most prestigious racing studs in Australia, including those which are home to Encosta De Lago (*swoon*) and Redoubt's Choice. These stallions have huge price tags, and even they are let out to stretch their legs. Redoubt was kept, like the other stallions, in nice sized yards that were 'fenced' with black rubber to keep them safe from almost everything. Why the same couldn't be done for performance horses, I don't know. Confinement is one thing that really should be policed.
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post #23 of 36 Old 10-23-2012, 06:50 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by EvilHorseOfDoom View Post
I'm really not a fan of PETA but I'm keen to see how this goes and wish them the best in this endeavour.

(Completely off topic but...keeping goldfish in bowls is actually very cruel, and more harmful to the animal than rollkur - they are a "messy" fish that has the potential to grow quite large and a single 4in adult goldfish should live in a min 8gal (30L) tank. Skinnier fish types of the same length can live in about half that, but the bigger the better really or the ammonia buildup is too much for even a big filter. That's why so many goldfish don't live as long as they should, which is ~15 years. From a former hobby aquarist .)
I just learned my random fact for the day! I had no idea, so there is method to PETA's madness in the goldfish campaign
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post #24 of 36 Old 10-23-2012, 07:00 AM
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I just learned my random fact for the day! I had no idea, so there is method to PETA's madness in the goldfish campaign
Yeah, although knowing PETA I'm surprised their main complaint isn't the lack of privacy offered by a glass bowl There is a lot of ignorant cruelty/neglect toward fish - mostly because they're pretty cheap, they don't really look miserable til they're belly up and (of course) they can't make communicate their needs very well. If they were dogs most people would be horrified but there isn't much knowledge among casual fish keepers and the general public.
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post #25 of 36 Old 10-23-2012, 07:11 AM
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I don't agree with 24/7 confinement either and I think this lawsuit won't last. That said, PETA's language is vague and overbroad enough to set a sketchy precedent for all horse owners. They state that: ""To avoid possible injury, the stallion is prohibited to have contact with other horses and he is prevented from having free self-directed movement."

So what does "free self-directed movement" mean? Keeping them in a stall? A paddock? A small field? How big does it have to be? What about riding a horse? Does that prevent free self-directed movement? Does the wording about Toto being prohibited from having contact with other horses also include horses on individual turn-out (like mine, because she's a danger to herself and others when in a herd, or a million breeding stallions in the world)?
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post #26 of 36 Old 10-23-2012, 01:15 PM
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Very interesting read! I'll be following this one closely!

And I too while chock on the fact that I agree with PETA on the confinement issue. My girl is out 24/7 with a run in area into a barn. She doesn't actually have a stall, but comes into the run in area to get locked up for an hour or so for dinner, and then is let right back out. And she is the most relaxed, happy horse I've met in a LONG time. Sure, there really isn't an area, just a big grassy area to ride when we start riding, but she's happy!

I've also been to some of the Thoroughbred farms here in Kentucky. Saw Distorted Humor enjoying his time out in the pasture, and he was calm as could be. Sarava (Belmont winner) has just been retired to Old Friends where he will also be out 24/7 with a run in shed. And from the sounds of it he's soaking it all in.

I've never been a fan of total confinement for a horse. I know my boss spent 60k on her Dressage horse when I was growing up (small change to some) and he was out daily unless there was lightning or the bugs were getting him too bad.
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post #27 of 36 Old 10-23-2012, 01:23 PM
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@Kayty - Oh I totally understand the "reasoning" behind keeping them locked up in a stall, I'm just saying that obviously that's not right and there are plenty of upper level, elite, multimillion dollar (euro) horses that aren't living like that and are perfectly fine, if not healthier and likely happier.

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post #28 of 36 Old 10-23-2012, 01:56 PM
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I understand why people lock up a horse when that kind of money is involved. I don't think it is right to the horse, but if I had millions of dollars in a horse, Id be pretty paranoid of something happeneing to it too. I think we all would. I'm willing to guess if they can spend that much money on a horse, they have enough money to hire a lawyer good enough to agure that it is benefiting the horse, or in its best interest.

Heck, if someone can win a case because they burned their mouth on some hot coffee, this could be a walk in the park.
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post #29 of 36 Old 10-23-2012, 07:14 PM Thread Starter
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I think the price of a horse though, is relevant to the income of the owner.
The owner and rider of Totilas, are VERY wealthy, a couple of million probably isn't an enormous amount, as it would be to one of us 'normal' income earners.
I paid $10k for my weanling, and my BARGAIN gelding I paid $5k for.
Now, between the two of them, that is a huge chunk of my yearly income. As such, they are both insured. And they both go out into the paddock 24/7. The only time either of them come in, is the night before a show, or if the weather is attrocious.
Their worth to me, would be the equivalent of the chunk of 'income' from the owners of these multi mullion dollar horses.

On the flip side, there's also the talent lost if the horse is injured. Again, all relevent.
If one of my horses is injured beyond 'repair', I'd be stuffed, to be it mildly. My 'bargain' horse is the most talented riding horse that I have owned, and there is no way I'll find another like him for the price I paid, and an even bigger no way for me to be able to afford something like him, for the higher price that he would have otherwise been worth.

That's why you insure horses. Paddock accident, you can claim against. I'm sure Totilas's owners could quite easily afford another very talented horse. As could others in that end of the sport. And the stud fees Toto would make, even if only paddock sound, are huge.

Not saying injury would be ideal, but it's not the end of the world for people with BIG bucks behind them.

Strange, if you read further down my post, you'll see that I was agreeing with you ;)

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post #30 of 36 Old 10-23-2012, 08:30 PM
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...and lives an isolated life confinded to his stall.
I couldn't take the article seriously after reading that.

The Dressage barn I'm at doesn't use Rollkur, so I have no personal experience with it. If in small amounts it helps with stretching, fine. Though if it is detrimental with extensive use, it shouldn't be used as such. As for stallions being prevented from contact with other horses, that is the smart thing to do. Stallions can be incredibly aggressive...and I should know, as I had a recent experience with a very ballsy one. Though horses should have time outside to kick up their heels and just be horses. I don't see any of it as abuse, really. They seem like they're just trying to protect the horse. Maybe going a little too far to do so, but they're not intending to cause him harm at all.

As for PETA. Yeah. Screw them. I cannot take them seriously at all.

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