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Philippe Karl?

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    07-03-2012, 11:47 PM
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His training methods are not "his". He takes things from the writings of various great masters of equitation. The thing is that these writings are old and have been translated several times in several ways (kind of like the Bible) and so , it's a bit of a subjective pick and choose as to what the original writer really meant.

But, I liked his writings, (I think translated from the French, and not always so well, either). His talk about the value of the hand in dressage is not currently in vogue, but that does not mean it isn't correct.

I have never seen him teach. I can imagine he is probalby an oddball. But, I liked his "Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage", which is thought provoking.
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    07-03-2012, 11:48 PM
I haven't seen video's so much as a couple of times in the flesh in Masterclasses and clinics. He had beautiful big moving warmbloods trundling along like ponies, a dip behind the saddle and hollow in front of the wither. I was far from impressed and have seen far less experienced riders get a much better result from these horses.
    07-03-2012, 11:51 PM
I'll go on a hunt to find one but here is the first one I found:

Yes I can't do what he does as I'm a beginner, but his hands are almost to his chin and his horse is travelling hollow most of the time.

Unlike, say this one (not dressage but not hollow either):
    07-03-2012, 11:56 PM
Sorry, I guess I still need help. Can you give me the time when he starts to lift his hands up?? They are high, but it seems like upper level dressage riders always ride with a higher hand position compared to the lower levels?

Hard to see, though. The compression of the video really skewed it. =/ Seems a little unfair to compare the two videos.

This school is a new school of thought for me, and I've never been one to simply take one's words. I want to see it myself before I disregard anything.
    07-03-2012, 11:58 PM
Not my problem that it's skewed. You ask, I deliver. Google him and hit the images button and you'll see many stills where he is riding a hollow horse.

What I suggest, teamfire, is why not take a few lessons with this particular coach and see what they teach you. Because everyone learns differently and what they teach you could cause you to ride differently and improve.. or know what you don't want to do.

Does that make sense?

Every trainer has something to teach you. But personally.. I would find a different coach if I were in your position. I've had too many poor coaches and my horse doesn't need me learning more bad habits.
    07-04-2012, 12:15 AM
I did, but I also saw many pictures with him riding a not hollow horse. I find pictures hard to judge, anyways, because they are but a moment in time. (I have long learned to never make assumptions or conclusions based on poor or conflicting evidence)

But the fact that kayty saw him herself doing so does give me much pause, of course.

Like I said, I'll be trying a few instructors before making any decisions. I just want to go into it prepared.
    07-04-2012, 12:17 AM
Super Moderator

Do these images look like a rider on a hollow horse?
ChristineNJ likes this.
    07-04-2012, 12:55 AM
That extended trot in particular is horrid (OTF, shovelling the front end directly into the ground, high hand to try to fix the front end and a passive seat). And judging by the well developed muscles on the underside of the necks of the grey horses I would say that there is a high chance they're ridden hollow with a pulling hand.

Also, in a correct, classical piaffe the hind legs only come up a hoof height, not to the fetlock as seen in the pictures, a clear indication of a bouncing croup and loading of the forehand. The second piaffe is also clearly triangulated and OTF.

On the black horse, I've seen children eq. Riders ride similarly.

I fail to be impressed by smoke, mirrors and a book. My horse doesn't knash his teeth in the half steps, manages to keep his hindlegs under himself in an extended trot and I don't have to ride in a saddle 2" too small to keep my leg under me. And I've never done a lick of training where people label themselves as "classical". Traditional German training, yes, but none of this floofy classical stuff. It's the Parelli of the dressage world as far as I'm concerned.
equiniphile, Kayty and DuffyDuck like this.
    07-04-2012, 01:04 AM
Originally Posted by tinyliny    

Do these images look like a rider on a hollow horse?

But remember tiny that a horse using his back is only ONE piece of the puzzle. There are many other pieces, that anebel and kayty have alluded to, which aren't there.
    07-04-2012, 01:27 AM
That extended trot makes me feel happy - that at least my fairly green horse, who has been out of work for a significant amount of time and has many previous 'issues' to undo... can at least sit on his backside and give me semblance of lengthening that does not look like that.

Iberian horses - they're pretty, they're round, they bend their joints.
It hides the problems much more efficiently than a more modern type warmblood, or a TB, that when undermuscle develops, will closely resemble a camel.
Also - an extended trot photo like that, if one was taken of Totilas in that frame... it would be all over every single forum, magazine etc. There is zero overtrack, the back is NOT being used, hocks are miles behind, and the underside of the neck and the shoulders are enormous, they resemble those of a cart horse bred to pull on their front legs, due to muscle built up from work on the forehand.

Unimpressive. NEXT????

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