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Philippe Karl?

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  • Philippe karl bad
  • Bad extended trot

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    07-04-2012, 02:25 AM
  #21
Super Moderator
Are these better examples of extended trots?





     
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    07-04-2012, 03:07 AM
  #22
Trained
Some yes, some no.
In the extended paces, you want to see the whole frame of the horse lengthening, the hind and forelegs moving parallel to one another, and the horse should be overtracking. The hind legs need to reach under and step under the horse's centre of gravity.

There is so much more to extended paces than just kicking until the horse goes faster and flings its front legs further to stop itself falling over!
     
    07-04-2012, 11:06 AM
  #23
Weanling
I think her point was that it's easy to get a bad extended pace... No matter what training method you follow.
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    07-04-2012, 11:17 AM
  #24
Started
I think that if you like the way this trainer and her students work with your horse and he travels well and seems happier with them, go for it! Don't make a decision based on who the influencing trainers might or might not be, because there are very few trainers who are carbon copies of another... they all take a little here, a little there, and develop their own unique philosophy. (Or at least, that's what the good ones should do.)
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    07-04-2012, 11:31 AM
  #25
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by teamfire    
I think her point was that it's easy to get a bad extended pace... No matter what training method you follow.
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Which is still not an excuse to be doing a bad extended trot.
Those pictures are candid and used by media. The Phillipe Karl pictures are used by him for promotional purposes, meaning he chose that extended trot photo and put it on his website believing it to be a good extended trot. That is the difference.

I also hate when people post Toto pictures and say "eww his extended trot sucks how does he get 80%". It's because it's one movement and yes, his extended trot does suck. That's why he never got 100%. If you watch the tests with instant scoring you'll see that he gets a 6 and maybe a 7 if it's really good that day. Test riding is very different than riding around at home in your arena. You have one shot to show the movements in a sequence that may be hard for your horse, and try to get the best possible scores. My horse's canter half pass is laughable after a walk-canter transition. Unfortunately for me, this is where it is in the tests. After a line of tempis I can easily get a 7 or 7.5 (which is what I get in the FS where they are placed) where I get a 6 in a technical test.


I guess I am getting really OT but train with whoever works for you. Personally I see PK or "classical" and I think "run far, far away". I personally prefer the traditional German style of training over anything as the coaches tend to focus on the rider and how your aids and position influence the horse. IMO most classically trained folks sit like a sack of potatoes and use their hands for an awful lot. I'm also not a huge fan of the dutch training system. But it is whatever works for you!
     
    07-04-2012, 06:08 PM
  #26
Weanling
I went on a search, and frankly, I don't see what there's not to like about Karl. I didn't see any hollow horses. Of course, videos are always edited, and one's personal experience overrides anything on YouTube!

But if he ever came here, I'd want to go.

     
    08-13-2013, 12:41 PM
  #27
Foal
Philippe Karl

It seems to me that P Karl rides horses in a fashion that is collected, but is different from modern competitive dressage (which emphasizes head-set, round back). He seems to rely more on the lifting of shoulder/wither/base and lowering of pelvis. This makes sense to me and it would follow that less injuries to the horse are possible with this method.

Plus I've dabbled in both and my horse definitely prefers the "light" method. That's enough for me.

Take a look at the piaffe photos here:

Philippe Karl Ecole de Légèreté - News: Taking over equestrian culture
     
    08-13-2013, 04:20 PM
  #28
Weanling
I have seen PK in many venues, on all types of horses. And they all go better, they all show the horsemanship and tact of the rider. Those who can piaffe, bloom. And without a doubt they all track up (over in extensions) better. I have never seen a horse suffer from his riding, but all improved. More importantly, they also end up seeking fdo better (with an opening throat latch). Is it difficult to teach technique to those with problematic seats/timing/etc? Not easy.

But his work is little different than most of the germans/swedes/danes/austrian/portugeuse I have ridden with (and they had medals under their belts as well as experience with 100s of horses.). Those who think it different are likely on exposed to the last 20-30 years of competitive riding. And that said, his impact in Germany is probably the strongest.

As to the extension, it gained ground, the legs are parallel, there was over stride (in the vid, but it was slightly over tempo as well). And the nose was pointed basically toward were the front foot would land. Is there a slight over use of the foreleg joint? Yes. But most would not even sit on the horse he trains (conformationally).

In fact, one horse which is in his book, was headed to the killers in germany. I know the daughter of a trainer father & grandfather who saw the how. They were blown away by the changes PK made in the horse without any force.

A lifted hand has a purpose: to mobilize the jaw, to set a limit, to be able to extend the neck. As a hh, it is to cause the horse to change its balance and to fold the hindlegs. So higher hands hh is to fix the balance and the HINDLEG's action. That said by lifting the bit in the mouth with the horse in position, it can create the will to stretch fdo as well. By doing this the horse becomes the opposite of hollow, they become willing to CHOOSE the hand lightly and w/o ever hollowing. And on the lightest of connections. HH are BRIEF and purposeful. These are basic rein effects which have been around for a very long time.

Perhaps he is more clear than some other riders in teaching this effect, but hh have always been vertical (look at the vid of the pas de deux with Reiner Klimke...it is the same). And as far as equition: straight line from elbow to horses mouth IS the NEUTRAL.

In the piaffe, the fei rule is that the TOE of the hind leg should be slightly ABOVE the fetlock of the other hind leg. It is in his pix. But MORE IMPORTANTLY, the croup is lowered (joints folded) and the foreleg which is bearing weight IS vertical (rarely seen today). And his horses are (properly) piaffeing from the balance of the seat/are very light in hand, and are so full of life. And the white grey horse, I don't know who would even bother to train a horse with a vertical shoulder in the first place, I am impressed with the work with such a horse. ALL horses. The black horse is simply one which is how ALL young dressage horses should be ridden, up/open/active/quietly..as it should be, but rarely is.

And for people who did not start riding until later in life, take note that he did not start until almost 20. And then of course he did LOTS of jumping at Samaur before specializing.

The question is WHY there is such a strong reaction to what was fairly traditional, and usually minimal (ie the (vertical) hh? Years ago an up and open horse which were freely stepping through/ifv (etc required by the fei directives) was the mainstream, as was perfecting equitation. Only educated riders started horses. And longitudinal flexions was not the first thing a rider/horse was taught. Fast forward and we see 'round horses' at training level; yet this posture is one which should come later with collection. So much is a reaction to reschooling. Unnecessary reschooling because the horses were asked things precipitously. Then the rider has to learn how to create different reactions.

For what it is worth, he also champions that every horse at every level should have to show fdo in all three gaits. PROPER fdo, seeking the hand and opening the throatlach. And horse ifv in all gaits (gee...he didnt think that one up...the odgs and the FEI rules demand it in the directives.)

As far as Toto, he was given 8s for his disunited/impure trots. All foreleg, no over stride but certainly over tempo. The thing is we have to ask WHY this occurs. Because of the closed posture of the training (the bending over to raise the (lumbar) back). But that also straightens the hindleg use, which makes the extensions braced. And the need for submission creating horizontal curbs w/o out ANY lightness or uberstreichen moments. He is NOT an example of a traditional system, but one which is based in french theory that went awry with SJ's leadership (since SJ was a misbegotten BSM student).
     
    08-13-2013, 10:42 PM
  #29
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
That's why he has a tough time on anything not Iberian, those horses pop out of the womb looking collected, anything requiring any semblance of a half halt just runs around strung out and on the forehand
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayty    
Took the words right out of my mouth!
That's the 'problem' with the 'classical vs modern' dressage debate - these so called 'classical' trainers, such as Phillipe, tend to ride Iberian horses - who were probably piaffing in the womb. Warmbloods do require much more rider input to keep them balanced and in collection - Hence requiring a much more tactful and feeling rider than the majority of the Iberians.
As much as I don't like PK's training methods or riding... I really have to disagree with the comments about Iberian breeds. Do either of you ride one?

They don't pop out looking collected and they require just as muct tact and feeling as a warmblood to ride correctly. I have a part bred Andalusian and to be frank, I find him just as hard to ride as my coaches Warmbloods.

With incorrect training any horse will hollow out, be on the forehand, behind the vertical, not engage the back or track up correctly regardless whether they are Iberian or Warmblood and their rider is Phillipe Karl, Carl Hester, Anky, Isabell Werth or whoever.
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    08-14-2013, 12:12 AM
  #30
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaeNae87    
As much as I don't like PK's training methods or riding... I really have to disagree with the comments about Iberian breeds. Do either of you ride one?

They don't pop out looking collected and they require just as muct tact and feeling as a warmblood to ride correctly. I have a part bred Andalusian and to be frank, I find him just as hard to ride as my coaches Warmbloods.

With incorrect training any horse will hollow out, be on the forehand, behind the vertical, not engage the back or track up correctly regardless whether they are Iberian or Warmblood and their rider is Phillipe Karl, Carl Hester, Anky, Isabell Werth or whoever.

I'm training an ANCCE registered PRE - just about as iberian as you can get. Cerrada en Bocado lines - he's in my profile pic.
12 months undersaddle and the thing does a nice couple steps of passage already. Compared to my SWB who is 10, 70% at FEI I1 and has trouble with cadenced half steps...

Also ETA about the "correct training" thing - yes the horse is correctly trained. 64.7% on his first second level at 10 months undersaddle - now heading into his big comp with 14 entrants in his division and I do expect a top 5 finish.
I can post a video - but most members here have seen my I1 horse go - this one does not go much differently and has a great medium trot developing which has not made it to film yet. In September I'll post his tests up.
Oh and he is solidly jumping XC and SJ fences to 2'9 with no problems with scope.
By far the easiest horse I've trained.
     

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