Philippe Karl? - Page 5 - The Horse Forum
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post #41 of 59 Old 08-14-2013, 12:55 PM
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Perhaps for people who have never seen him he is. When two very old
Reitlehrers (and a reitmeister) says he did things with horses that they would have tossed away, that is praise.

Is he for everyone? No. Are there things to be discussed as to why? Or what the differences are? For sure.

Would he have had any impact 30 years ago? No, because all horses were ridden up/open/and towards lightness in hand/self carriage. That is a big difference.

Equally equitation stood before all other things, it is prerequisite to being able to train.

It's rather like the riders (german/french) which changed horses after an olympic (in 36). The german said 'for me there is no difference', and the frenchman said your is more obedient. That speaks to the nature of the people doing the training, the exacting vs the lightness.
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post #42 of 59 Old 08-15-2013, 03:22 PM
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I was taught that extensions were sort of a function of collection. That is, as much and as correctly as you collect, so it can be expressed by the release of the energy forward.

My first practice at extensions came after a shoulder-in on the short side, into a change of rein. The shoulder-in develops collection by bringing the hind end under, and the horse was in a good position for some extension.

It's why I always have trouble understanding people who say their horses can collect, but not extend. (Although I know, I've said it myself! In my case, I was clueless about correct contact.)

P-Karl is probably a "joke" the same way Parelli is here in certain places. I personally feel it's the gang-up-on-what-we-don't-understand syndrome. Reason enough not to try to understand any of it further.

One more opinion: I don't judge the quality of "dressage" by competitive "Dressage" scores.
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post #43 of 59 Old 02-12-2014, 12:30 PM
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Philippe Karl

Hi everyone,

New here but wanted to share that i am one of the riders and the organizer at the santa fe school location. there are 3 US schools. i'm a former low level competitor in dressage, and riding in this school has changed my riding for the better. my horses are happy and i'm enjoying myself too. we are a fun, supportive and positive group of people. i'm happy to share what i know about the method but i am only in the first year and so my experience is quite limited at the moment.
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post #44 of 59 Old 02-12-2014, 07:03 PM
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I saw one video of Karl & thought he was an excellent dressage rider. Horse going forward with the lightest of aides. It was beautiful. I watched in again & again and saved it so I could watch again!! Love his riding!
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post #45 of 59 Old 02-16-2014, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by ChristineNJ View Post
I saw one video of Karl & thought he was an excellent dressage rider. Horse going forward with the lightest of aides. It was beautiful. I watched in again & again and saved it so I could watch again!! Love his riding!
Do you have a link to the video?

Would like to learn more about all the big dressage names. Never heard of this one before, I'm interested :)

"There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." -- Albert Einstein
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post #46 of 59 Old 02-16-2014, 09:58 PM
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post #47 of 59 Old 04-30-2014, 10:08 AM
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I have watched Philippe Karl teach and ride in person and he is the epitome of excellent equitation. He can get on any warmblood, tb, whatever and make it better by the time he leaves its back. But with that said, I've seen others emulating him who clearly don't have his depth of experience. You just can't replace years of apprenticeship at a place like Saumur with the guidance of elders and the libraries to read with a three year, a few weekends every few months education. The education he received that he is trying to pass on very nobly and precisely unfortunately won't take hold partially because of how many people do it wrong and post videos of their inverted, above the bit, off the aids, hollow horses. That is NOT what Philippe Karl himself does.

So having ridden with one of his certified trainers and with a few people from the Spanish Riding School, I had very similar lessons with equal results on both sides. I ride and host clinics most consistently with a Bereiter from the Spanish Riding School because I really love his approach, his enthusiasm, and his tact with all of the riders in the clinic.

Just my humble opinion...I would be HONORED to ride with or have Philippe Karl or the Bereiter from SRS teach me or ride me horses ANY day!!!
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post #48 of 59 Old 01-02-2016, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~ View Post
I specifically don't like that he's a wacko that couldn't train a trained horse. Anyone can ride around like a sack of potatoes with their hands around their ears doing tricks on an uncollected horse and call it classical Dressage. The hard part is getting a willing partner working correctly through his body and working hard to correctly execute Dressage movements.
That's why he has a tough time on anything not Iberian, those horses pop out of the womb looking collected, anything requiring any semblance of a half halt just runs around strung out and on the forehand
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Forgive me for intruding and reviving the discussion after so long a time, but I really must protest out of actual facts. Where have you received the impression that Philippe Karl generally works with iberian horses? As he is the former "écuyer en chef du Cadre Noir de Saumur" most of his experience lies with thoroughbreds, anglo-arabians, hanoverians and used by the school in performance of "air above ground", the Selle Français - not Spanish and Portuguese horses. Noted should also be that every school jump in question; be it capriole, courbette, croupade, pesade or levade; or any other more unusual element of Haute École, requires the absolute highest form of mastered balance and collection, and some cannot even be performed by the horse with a rider upon its back on any other ground than a completely plain manège. So what I am trying to say is that no rider working his horse in false collection can possibly perform such demanding movements. Philippe Karl would not have been the Chief Écuyer of Cadre Noir and the head master of the whole Nationale d'Équitation for so many years, if he had lacked the ability to ride a schooled horse in correct collecting. What you are suggesting above is completely absurd. You may not like his methods but that does not give room for insults based upon preconceptions and lacking knowledge of the classical school of equestrian art - it is after all called "classical" for a reason; without the founding of Haute École, today's equestrianism would not even exist. As a high level FEI dressage judge said in an interesting debate a few years ago, concerning "classical vs. competition": "I cannot deny that the horses are collected, but it is a form of collection that would not suit us, as it it too uncontrolled. It simply is not beautiful." I do not agree with her, but it is still a respectable way of voicing one's own opinions.
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Last edited by Klara Schelin; 01-02-2016 at 06:21 PM. Reason: Missed a word.
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post #49 of 59 Old 01-02-2016, 09:14 PM
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• Horses: 0 Yep, looks like an inability to ride a baroque horse (kidding clearly). He takes ALL comers, both to train and with students and methodically develops them. And his equitation is seemless, whispers.

I would ask who has seen him in real life? I have, on many horses. One given to him because it was clearly a horse which reared. Not only did it trust him, it show the best movements of the clinic. Each became more calm, more easy, and both collected and jumped!

And for what it is worth, the lady's horse (who left the clinic after the first day) was clearly better balanced and more calm during her lessons. But few riders today train horses up and open (as required by the fei directives), and often do not understand what used to be consider traditonal (by ALL schools).

FOr what it is worth he does not ride around with high hands. Half halts/demi arrets to rebalance the horse are light actions (into the corners of the lips), when the horse takes a hh the hind leg joints fold more, keeping the horse arced out to the hand. And from the mobilization of the jaw/lateral flexibility, the horse can be lengthened forward/down/outward. These are not just PK, it is any traditional shcool.
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Last edited by equitate; 01-02-2016 at 09:22 PM.
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post #50 of 59 Old 01-02-2016, 09:30 PM
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What is interesting is that the person who first told me about PK was a german (whose father and grandfather are top trainers). They were hugely impressed by him taking one horse (shown in his books) who they knew well from a neighboring school which was scheduled to go to the killers, and reschooling it to a top level. Almost all his horses are taken from horrid circumstances and reschooled. How many trainers work with such horses? You can love him or hate him, but few people can take toss aways and be productive with them. But that is why the methods (hh) have to be so clear, it is very difficult to reschool horses which have been made low/closed/compressed and develop lightness/self carriage/pure gaits/etc.
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