Piaffe & Passage Training - Page 3 - The Horse Forum
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post #21 of 62 Old 09-18-2013, 03:05 PM
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No it doesn't - its a cheats way of trying to get a poorly trained horse that's not yet fit enough or advanced enough for that level to pick up its feet in response to a crack on the leg.
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post #22 of 62 Old 09-18-2013, 03:14 PM
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Those vids which showed huge over reactions, or talking about 'cracking' the legs are likely not what was done. And neither is the clicker trained piaffe necessarily correct. There are many ways to have a horse bounce on the spot but not be light/balanced/in self carriage/etc. There ARE artists with tact and timing to 'enflame' reactions w/o abuse.
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post #23 of 62 Old 09-18-2013, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by equitate View Post
Those vids which showed huge over reactions, or talking about 'cracking' the legs are likely not what was done. And neither is the clicker trained piaffe necessarily correct. There are many ways to have a horse bounce on the spot but not be light/balanced/in self carriage/etc. There ARE artists with tact and timing to 'enflame' reactions w/o abuse.
THIS. I did not watch the videos but I can imagine the crudeness.

Jaydee, it's a shame you are quick to write off training aids with no experience. This is why dressage is viewed as inaccessible. I hope you get a chance to truly work with a modern day master if even for a day and I hope you have the sense to open your mind and learn. I'm lucky enough to have been exposed to these things prior to becoming jaded by epona.tv and other media outlets, pre internet. But I guess everyone cannot have such an open minded experience from the beginning...


ETA any horse can give a half step within 2 years of being undersaddle (given correct training). How can one expect to build muscle that is not used and many horses respond quite wonderfully to a little tap here and there to engage the correct muscles.
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post #24 of 62 Old 09-18-2013, 05:09 PM
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Sorry this post came while a pile more popped up.
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post #25 of 62 Old 09-18-2013, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~ View Post
THIS. I did not watch the videos but I can imagine the crudeness.

Jaydee, it's a shame you are quick to write off training aids with no experience. This is why dressage is viewed as inaccessible. I hope you get a chance to truly work with a modern day master if even for a day and I hope you have the sense to open your mind and learn. I'm lucky enough to have been exposed to these things prior to becoming jaded by epona.tv and other media outlets, pre internet. But I guess everyone cannot have such an open minded experience from the beginning...


ETA any horse can give a half step within 2 years of being undersaddle (given correct training). How can one expect to build muscle that is not used and many horses respond quite wonderfully to a little tap here and there to engage the correct muscles.
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There are no videos posted here that show any crudeness or knocking of legs - only two that show how a long whip can be used to encourage the horse to move from its quarters on the ground into a light resisting hand - no abuse at all.
And I think that telling someone who is many years older than you and has seen and experienced first hand a lot more than you have - and who you know nothing about at all is pure ignorance
I was working and competing with horses long before the internet was ever heard of - or the hype you talk about - so maybe get your facts right before you hit the keyboard.

Last edited by TaMMa89; 09-19-2013 at 11:07 AM.
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post #26 of 62 Old 09-18-2013, 05:30 PM
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Itís perfectly fine to have disagreements over a topic or training method. Even strong disagreements, however, rudeness will Not be tolerated.
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post #27 of 62 Old 09-18-2013, 06:09 PM
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Aids are divided into two groups, natural and artificial.
Natural aids are hands, seat, legs and voice.
Artificial are spurs whips and martingales which include all sorts of training aids.

The fact that in dressage the voice is not allowed, nor is the whip, does not mean that they cannot or should not be used as a training aid.

The Spanish Riding School start teaching the piaffe by using pillar reins and a whip. This is not done in a vicious way but, the whip is used as an extension of the arm.

Believe me, if the horse objected then it would soon be either rushing away or kicking out. The fact that the horse was accepting the action of the trainer tell me that the horse was not afraid and accepted the action by trying to please.
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post #28 of 62 Old 09-18-2013, 06:18 PM
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Please keep in mind that what the horses that PurpsTank posted are doing is nothing but prancing in place. The Charro dancing horses, where they *are* whipped brutally and abused, in order to get the fake piaffe and "dancing" steps.
That is not what Anebel et al are referring to.
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post #29 of 62 Old 09-18-2013, 06:37 PM
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The point of the two videos wasnt to show which had a better piaffe, as neither are what are sought after in high level dressage shows, but both are extreme opposite ways of teaching it, whether those ibdividuals achieved the right thing or not. In georgia's video its clear she was just showing how to achieve a shortened trot, not really a dressage style piaffe, though close. While in the spanish one (I'd like to point out this is not done through any sort of fancy school, this is just guys getting their horses amped up for a parade teaching them to dance in place). They are not seeking a piaffe either, theyre just seeking a horse doin acrobatics and trying to look as flashy as possible. My reason for showing it is that the training style from the spanish group is very similar to what I see in dressage - a horse restrained from forward movement and force being applied to make them dance in place for purely cosmetic reasons. The only difference I see between the dressage trainers and the charro style trainers is thar in dressage they spend years of training building up to these skills and have clear rules and expectations on how the horse should use their body, while tge charros just throw any horse on a pillar with a bit strong enough to inhibit forward motion and beat em till theyre dancing.
Pardon my grammar my phone is awful. I don't think the tools are cruel, its how and why theyre used.
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post #30 of 62 Old 09-18-2013, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxhunter View Post
Aids are divided into two groups, natural and artificial.
Natural aids are hands, seat, legs and voice.
Artificial are spurs whips and martingales which include all sorts of training aids.

The fact that in dressage the voice is not allowed, nor is the whip, does not mean that they cannot or should not be used as a training aid.

The Spanish Riding School start teaching the piaffe by using pillar reins and a whip. This is not done in a vicious way but, the whip is used as an extension of the arm.

Believe me, if the horse objected then it would soon be either rushing away or kicking out. The fact that the horse was accepting the action of the trainer tell me that the horse was not afraid and accepted the action by trying to please.


when I was watching the video of the Mexican guys training the "dancing" horses, I kept hoping the horse would go ballistic and kick his head off. But, they are held by a severe bit or a strong tie, and a lot of coercion that makes them accept something that is fear and pain inducing.
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