Put a dressage rider in the hunter ring, put a classical rider in the modern ring=? - Page 12
   

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Put a dressage rider in the hunter ring, put a classical rider in the modern ring=?

This is a discussion on Put a dressage rider in the hunter ring, put a classical rider in the modern ring=? within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category
  • Dressage training in charlottesville

 
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    08-26-2010, 09:19 PM
  #111
Green Broke
Why wouldnt any discipline, English or Western, Driving or Gaited, want a horse that is not relaxed or that doesnt have rhythm in its gaits? So again, how is that just not general riding fundamentals in THAT discipline? Why does it have to be considered basic dressage?
     
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    08-26-2010, 09:27 PM
  #112
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelvetsAB    
Why wouldnt any discipline, English or Western, Driving or Gaited, want a horse that is not relaxed or that doesnt have rhythm in its gaits? So again, how is that just not general riding fundamentals in THAT discipline? Why does it have to be considered basic dressage?
A surprizing amount of people don't practice things like that.

Basic dressage is just another way of saying it, It really is just GOOD RIDING fundamentals, but im pretty sure in definition its basic dressage, like, hmmm,I don't really know how to explainit, im confusing myself xD
But basic dressage is jsut another name for it.
     
    08-26-2010, 09:52 PM
  #113
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelvetsAB    
Why wouldnt any discipline, English or Western, Driving or Gaited, want a horse that is not relaxed or that doesnt have rhythm in its gaits? So again, how is that just not general riding fundamentals in THAT discipline? Why does it have to be considered basic dressage?
Maura gave a good definition what "basic dressage" is. It's just, well..., a name. But many people (talking from own prospective as well while back) generally think "dressage" means just something very fancy (I'm talking about piaffe and such here).
     
    08-26-2010, 11:46 PM
  #114
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelvetsAB    
Why wouldnt any discipline, English or Western, Driving or Gaited, want a horse that is not relaxed or that doesnt have rhythm in its gaits? So again, how is that just not general riding fundamentals in THAT discipline? Why does it have to be considered basic dressage?
The term dressage means training...simple as that.

Training occurs at the lowest levels and at the highest levels. So in my reference in saying that discipline switch can be done easily with the horse and rider having basic dressage first simply means that the horse and rider had the fundamentals CORRECTLY trained so both can apply those basics with additional training specific to each discipline and do well.
     
    08-27-2010, 03:32 PM
  #115
Yearling
The modern and classical riders look exactly the same to me.
     
    08-27-2010, 03:39 PM
  #116
Green Broke
:) So everyone is doing dressage their whole lives then it looks like....even if they really didnt want to!

(Sorry, my last post was more for arguements sake then anything.)
     
    08-27-2010, 06:41 PM
  #117
Trained
Sure, anyone can walk, trot and canter, but the question is how effective are these gaits when they do them? Anyone can go around the wall in the arena "working" but are they really?

I'll tell you a story -

I board at a very large Hunter/Jumper barn, 40+ boarders and horses here where they are very involved with the LMHJA and blah blah blah.

My dear friend's daughter is going off to college, and they desperately need to find her horse a lease/rider because they cannot continue to pay for his needs while she is gone.

Now, their Daughter has done very well in the Hunter/Jumper circuit compeating at the B level. They always win, and her horse does a great job. He goes in the ring, does his stuff and pins.

So I was put in charge of finding him a leaser. So I've put ad's up and posted him on the internet and have had alot of enquiries. Most are Hunter/Jumpers who come out to try him out.

They tack him up, throw a standing martingale on him, head out to the arena and he does his job. Walk, trot, canter, jump, jump, jump, done. I get alot of "ooo I like him" and blah blah blah.

He goes around, upside down, bracing against the martingale, doesn't track up, back dropped and he says "This is easy peasy, I love my job"

Then, I had a Dressage Queen enquire about him. She comes out, brings her own Dressage Saddle, tacks him up and goes out to the arena.

She rode around on him for about 15 mintues with a loose rein, doing basic stuff, getting to know him and getting a feel for him. Then she asks for a headset - he had no idea what she was asking and it took her about 1/2 hour of repeatedly asking quietly for what she wanted, when he finally got it.

Then she got him tracking up and moving forward and opening him up and using himself. He was pissy as hell. Ears pinned back, tail swishing, not happy. But after about a 1/2 hour of getting him to use himself, his ears were forward, tail stopped swishing, he was lathering at the mouth and happy.

He looked exceptionally stunning with that dressage rider on his back, oh my gosh, who knew he had that in him after all the years of doing Hunter/Jumper.

Sure, anyone can walk, trot, canter, get rhythm and jump a fence - but it takes the strong fundamentals that dressage gives/offers horse/rider teams to beable to do it correctly.

Afterall, I hear so many Upper Level Riders stress time and time again, regardless of what discipline they are - from Reiners, to Hunters, to Jumpers, to Eventers saying how important Dressage is for all, because it helps improve both horse/rider and gives them the important fundamentals to make a more well rounded/balanced mount.

Sure, anyone can go around doing walk, trot, canter, 20 meter circles, and pop a fence - but you can definitely beable to tell which one has dressage training under their belts in compareson to those who do not.

If Grand Prix Jumpers spend up to 5 days a week doing dressage and if Grand Prix Mounts can do minimally level 3 dressage movements, it's because there is a good reason for it - because jumping is dressage with speed bumps.

Yes, if you are walking, you are doing very basic dressage. If you are trotting, yes you are doing very basic dressage. So in sense, yes everyone pretty much is doing dressage whether they know it or not.

But this ties into what Spyder is saying:
Quote:

So in my reference in saying that discipline switch can be done easily with the horse and rider having basic dressage first simply means that the horse and rider had the fundamentals CORRECTLY trained so both can apply those basics with additional training specific to each discipline and do well.
aka barrel racers, reiners, jumpers, eventers and etc, etc.
     
    08-27-2010, 07:35 PM
  #118
Green Broke
^^^ I see your point MIE and I agree with you in some respects. I guess it shows that a dressage rider would NOT necessarily take to the hunter ring successfully as suggested by the OP suggests.

After following this thread however, I think people (I have been guilty of this) judge the hunters by OUR OWN standards (e.g. Tracking up, impulsion etc etc) and from what I have gathered from various posts, there is no use comparing the two diciplines as they are too different - can't remember who said it but it is like comparing apples and oranges. Therefore benchmarks that dressage riders consider important do not bear the same importance in the jumper ring. Therefore we should not judge them harshly just because they do things differently and have different expectations.
     
    08-27-2010, 08:05 PM
  #119
Banned
*Sigh*

I sense another novel length post coming.

MIE, I get the message loud and clear that you don't think much of the hunter training going on in your barn, or perhaps even in your area.

But I think you're guilty of an error in logic when you assume that that barn or even your local circuit is representative of the discipline as a whole.

If I was to apply the same logic to my introduction to dressage, I would have had to conclude that dressage was a discipline practiced mostly by unfit, timid, middle aged women who liked to ride slowly in circles on deeply unhappy horses who were either bent at the third vertabrae or above the bit; because that was absolutely all their was on view in my area.

However, I attended dressage selection trials at Gladstone in the 70s, and read all the great dressage masters (Podhajsky, Museler, Klimke, et al) , and had to believe there was something more to it than those ladies who were scared to go forward or leave the ring. So, I left my local area, and went to Charlottesville, Maryland, Morven Park, anywhere I could afford to get to to get a real dressage education. When I wanted to bring isome of the same to my students, I formed a relationship with a brilliant instructor in Pennsylvania, and brought her to my barn for a clinic once a month. Good thing for me that I didn't judge an entire discipline by what I could find locally.

MIE, you frequently reference George Morris in your posts, and you clearly admire his teaching, his writing and his methods. How can that be? He wrote "Hunter Seat Equitation", he's the dean of hunter judges and teachers. He's basically the Podhajsky or Reiner Klimke of forward riding. Though he's branched out to jumpers, his core will always be with the hunters and HS equitation (which he believes should be the training ground for future GP jumpers.), Yet you frequently cite his columns and his books, and other eventers actually submit their photos to him to be critiqued. So there must something admirable about the discipline, even if it's only the high ground that George Morris represents.

May I make the modest suggestion that perhaps you've never seen a top quality hunter? Just I has hadn't ever seen a top quality dressage horse before 1985, except for that long ago selection trial? And that perhaps you're unfairly judging an entire discipline based on what you see locally?

Let's be realistic - how much good dressage is taught and ridden in the US? And how much mediocre to bad? For that matter, how many competent, secure eventers on well prepared horses are there out there and how many scary, ill prepared ones? However you answer those questions, could you please consider applying the same ratios to hunters?
     
    08-29-2010, 11:33 PM
  #120
Green Broke
Thank you Maura. Thank you thank you thank you. I feel like I'm always saying that but I appreciate your wise and experienced viewpoint and you very well written posts.

MIE- I have to say, I've wondered exactly what Maura just posted. Sounds like you've never been in contact with a top quality hunter trainer. How can you love GM so much and have so little respect for hunter riders? Never quite made sense to me.

The dressage riders in our area were described to me as a bunch of " timid middle aged corn fed women in too small saddles whose trainers have to lunge their sleepy old school masters in side reins for 30 min before they'll ever consider getting on to plod a circle at E". And you know what? She was right. There are 2 significantly sized eventing barns in my area and at best they're a joke. At worst, they're the EMT's worst nightmare when they come to our shows. They tear around galloping like idiots completely out of control, horses blasting through the jumps, inducing gasps from the audience who doesn't have their eyes shut. One of our clients just bought an eventing horse, who has the HARDEST mouth, completely dead to your leg, never been taught to move off your leg. I don't think too highly of the riding skills of the people in these disciplines I've seen... but I still respect the sport. I know enough about them to know that they are very difficult despite the poor examples I've been unfortunate enough to see.
     

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