Put a dressage rider in the hunter ring, put a classical rider in the modern ring=? - Page 13
   

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Put a dressage rider in the hunter ring, put a classical rider in the modern ring=?

This is a discussion on Put a dressage rider in the hunter ring, put a classical rider in the modern ring=? within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category
  • George morris proper turn out for the hunter ring
  • Dressage half-turn

 
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    08-29-2010, 11:42 PM
  #121
Green Broke
I've been thinking about this post all weekend. Why? Because I just participated in a 2 day clinic with a pretty great trainer. These are some of our exercises we did: (try these at home! They were great!)

-turns on the forehand from halt and worked on crossing hind over at the walk and trot while pivoting off the front leg.

- from the rail leg yield in, straight a step, leg yield back to rail. Half turn, leg yield back to rail. Leg yield in, half turn in reverse, extend the trot down the length of the ring. Repeat.

-concentric circles: leg yielding in to spiral in and out to spiral out.

- serpentine at canter, bending to a counter canter, bending to a counter canter, etc. (technically the start of a counter canter really)

-down center line, haunches in, straighten, haunches, out, straighten, repeat.

-down center line: shoulder in, straighten, shoulder out, straight, repeat.

So tell me... was this a hunter trainer or a dressage trainer?



A HUNTER TRAINER. A very good one who teaches how to work your horse properly to improve balance, athleticism, impulsion, forwardness, etc etc etc. Now, were these movements ridden as well as a top dressage rider would? I think not. We were in a hunter frame -meaning long and low, using the hind end but not as collected. A lot of what we did on the flat used more seat/legs/hand but once we started jumping we got off of our horse's backs. Did we quit riding? No. Did our horse's fall on their faces? No. We weren't "hunter riders doing dressage for a fun experience", IMO, this is just plain and simple good riding. Using a horse to their full potential.

And just to add, there was a top level dressage rider learning to jump who participated. She did quite well actually! Had some difficulties from difference in riding styles, but did ok considering. But there were also some hunters who did quite well in the flatwork portion of the clinic as well. Hm, maybe that would mean that success in a new discipline is dependent on the individual....
     
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    08-30-2010, 01:32 AM
  #122
Banned
It really is too bad that people put disciplines in slots based on a few examples seen

As far as eventers. It depends on their training and how they are taught. The only negative thing I have to say about eventers is that they often are trained my former eventers that hated dressage and their coaching reflected that. Those that got proper training in CX by an experienced eventer, jumping training by an experienced jumper trainer and DRESSAGE by a dressage specialist did not act like the people you described upnover.

An example of one such properly trained rider and horse is John Williams and Carrick..WEG God medal winner and Bronze Olympic winner. (Carrick BTW is my horse's uncle.)

Are there little old ladies riding sleepy horses in circless...you bet there are. But you will find the majority of these are former riders/or new riders to the game that after having a family wanted to have fun in a safer way, and who are we to discourage them from doing that. Any dressage rider worth their salt wanting to get ahead would never ever chose horses like this and if you look at the majority of horse being produced for this discipline you will find the average rider would have great difficulty riding them as many are on the "hot" side. Even Anky was bucked off and run away with one her horses. So again to ride this level of "forwardness" in a horse requies a great deal more skill than the average middle age woman wanting a fun safe ride.

As far as hunter...well my well trained horse ( FEI level trained) was up for lease as a jumper a while back and every "hunter rider" couldn't get him remotely round and continually dropped him before a jump and this was the only time in his life he refused a jump, something he simply never does. The rider that did the best with him came from Europe, had some basic dressage training as well as jumper and he flew over the jumps as easily as you would ever want. This rider was also showing hunter as well and got him going both ways. The hunter purists were a disaster.

As far as MORE than one discipline..I rode, dressage, western pleasure, western games,hunter and jumper but my first and basic riding skills taught me was dressage and I had no problems switching over more than one discipline and all of this on one horse. And just in case you wondered I won or placed in every discipline I listed above.

As I have said CONTINUOUSLY throughout this thread ...horses and riders can do well in many disciplines if the fundamentals are there first and specific training to another discipline added on after. That rider should be able to switch with a bit of work.


When a thread like this degrades to discipline bashing as it is doing then maybe it is best closed.
     
    08-30-2010, 07:09 AM
  #123
Banned
Sypder,

I suspect this thread was always about discipline bashing all along.

However, I couldn't agree more with this statement:

Quote:
It really is too bad that people put disciplines in slots based on a few examples seen
Also, I think all serious riders and horsemen can benefit from spending sometime outside of their primary discipline. Just like learning another language forces you to understand English grammar; learning another discipline forces you to really understand the theory and principles of your own. Doesn't mean you have to be a jack of all trades; just that spending sometime outside your own discipline can be eye-opening.

As far as your experience with your FEI horse, what you're saying makes perfect sense to me. If your "hunter riders" have never ridden anything but; they would have no experience in asking a horse to come round and not only wouldn't know how to ask, wouldn't know they should ask. As far as the dropping in front of fences thing; it's common and good practice on a hunter to soften (not release, but soften) contact in the last stride before a fence. This causes the horse to drape softly across the fence in the classic style. If you try to use this technique on a jumper, particularly a European trained jumper, (tend to be ridden with more contact in the air than their American counterparts) yes, it's likely that the horse would stop in confusion at the change in contact.

So those hunter riders needed some cross discipline experience; they simply didn't understand how to ride a horse with your horse's training and experience.

And as far as the original premise of this thread, I started out in hunters and consider that my *foundation*, but I managed to be successful in dressage, eventing and jumpers, much as you did in multiple discipliens So maybe the key here isn't what discipline you start out in, maybe it's your willingness to learn and your openmindedness?
     
    08-30-2010, 09:16 AM
  #124
Green Broke
I apologize if my post sounded like discipline bashing. I was starting to get frustrated. The point I was trying to make was that there is poor riding in other disciplines. But you can't judge an entire discipline by what you've seen, especially on the local level.
     
    08-30-2010, 09:50 AM
  #125
Trained
Yep, I absolutley look up to GM with high admiration - and I love reading his articles about how important dressage is to hunter riders. Heck, in one Practicle Horseman Magazine where he gave a 2 to 3 day clinic, he had an Olypmpic Dressage Rider come and give a full day of lessons to his students to incorportate how important dressage is to their daily riding.

I watch GM in person. I have gone to Chicago to audit his clinics, I've gone to Detroit to audit his Clinics and I go to a huge Hunter barn in the area where they host A rated shows, to audit his clinics.

What George Morris emits, is the Classical Way Of Riding - which is what I believe in. He even states how far the Hunter World has merged into a world that he never even intended it to be. Today's Hunter World is far from the Classical Form, not all - there are still amazing Hunter Barns, especially out East who incorporate the Traditional Styles and Classical Forms in their lessons and daily riding.

My post was just an example, and it was not discipline bashing. Yes there are many poor riders and trainers in all disciplines. My post tied into Velvets and Spyders post.

Thank you for your post Spyder, and very well said!

I really like this:

Quote:
As I have said CONTINUOUSLY throughout this thread ...horses and riders can do well in many disciplines if the fundamentals are there first and specific training to another discipline added on after. That rider should be able to switch with a bit of work.
You are 100% correct.
     
    08-30-2010, 12:41 PM
  #126
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIEventer    

What George Morris emits, is the Classical Way Of Riding - which is what I believe in. He even states how far the Hunter World has merged into a world that he never even intended it to be. Today's Hunter World is far from the Classical Form, not all - there are still amazing Hunter Barns, especially out East who incorporate the Traditional Styles and Classical Forms in their lessons and daily riding.
Very much agreed MIEventer! I actually read a book (http://www.amazon.com/Judging-Hunters-Hunter-Seat-Equitation/dp/0943955807) that I think addressed more of the classical look (and GM did the introduction to it actually)...which really to me only differs from dressage slightly! It mentions you're only to be SLIGHTLY in front of the vertical (I think it said only 10 or 20 degrees, I can't remember the exact number) and for what I see today at some shows, people are VEEERY in front, almost to the point of leaning so that if the horse were ever to refuse a jump, there would be absolutely NO way to not go over the horse's head!! The book I mentioned above has some great illustrations and I learned a lot from it. Now, I must say that I'm not a hunter, but from what I can tell and what I've seen, I think the book illustrates what GM means by classical form.
     
    08-30-2010, 03:19 PM
  #127
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by SPhorsemanship    
Sorry for the double post but I want to add photos.

"old" Classical dressage:




"Modern" classical dressage. Shows a horse with good contact, being ridden properly.


And...rollker/hyperflexion. How can this be called dressage? Or even riding?
Just wanted to point some things out.

First Photo: The horse is, as I call it, Over Collected. His hind legs are carrying more weight than his front therefor not 'Balanced'(you can see this as the horse is lifting his front legs higher than his hind), this is caused by a lack of foreword movement which resolves as to much collected energy.

Second Photo: The horses spine is extremely hollow...

Third Photo: The rider is extremely behind the horses movement, and the horse is bracing on the bit.

Forth photo: well, that speaks for its self.

The above photo is a much better demonstration of true Classical dressage.
     
    08-30-2010, 07:06 PM
  #128
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyRay    
Just wanted to point some things out.

First Photo: The horse is, as I call it, Over Collected. His hind legs are carrying more weight than his front therefor not 'Balanced'(you can see this as the horse is lifting his front legs higher than his hind), this is caused by a lack of foreword movement which resolves as to much collected energy.


.
IMPO he shouldnt be going forward, he's in piaffe. I was always taught that was a fantastic piaffe.
     
    08-31-2010, 04:55 AM
  #129
Trained
GreyRay, I would be interested to hear your experiences as a dressage rider?
Interesting that you say the first horse in piaffe is 'over collected' because if has more weight on the hind quarters then forehand - I have always been under the impression that a fundamental aspect of dressage is the achievement of collection, in which more weight is transferred onto and carried by, the hind quarters, which in turn lifts the forehand off the ground and allows for the movement to travel 'up' rather than 'out'. If this horse had no 'forward', it's forehand would be lower than it's hindquarters and it would certainly not have such an outstanding back and angle of the limbs.

In the third photo, I see a horse that is nicely on the contact, head just in front of the vertical and poll at the highest point


Maybe you need to have a little look on the FEI website and check out the dressage 'rules' and ideals.
     
    09-02-2010, 02:28 PM
  #130
Yearling
You mean the same FEI that put Anky in the championships?
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