Shoulder's in help - Page 2
 
 

       The Horse Forum > Riding Horses > English Riding > Dressage

Shoulder's in help

This is a discussion on Shoulder's in help within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category

     
    LinkBack Thread Tools
        02-15-2011, 03:52 PM
      #11
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tinyliny    
    From FoxyRoxy "personally when I do a shoulder in I start it off a circle and make sure to weight my inside seatbone (the inside seatbone is the direction ur wanting to travel) just make sure not to lean as ur doing this when doing any lateral movement think of going forward first and then over second bc you can't do any type of lateral movement with out forwardness. Make sure to only practice a couple of steps at a time and move to something else and then come back. "


    If you are going down the long side with shoulders in the left (the horse's shoulders come leftward to the inside of the arena while the hind legs stay on the rail) then the inside of your horse is the LEFT seatbone.
    However, this is NOT the direction you are travelling. You are literally travelling to the horse's right because he is crossing his left front over his right, toward his right. Thus, you are sitting on the inside seat bone, but it is not the direction he is travelling.

    Which brings up an interesting point. In the book "Twisted Truths of Modern Dressage" Phillipe Karl states that the ride should deifinitely and alway sit on the seatbone that it in the horse's direction of travel, and in the case of the shoulder in , this is the OUTSIDE seatbone.

    This is a big contraversy for dressage riders. I have no personal opinion on the matter, but I can say that that book is fascinating! And he gives lengthy and detailed reasoning for this position.
    If you're going to read that book, you should really have one of these on hand:


    While interesting, it is written from a very closed minded perspective. There are a lot of "always" and "nevers" written in it, and as we all know the horse is a living and breathing thing, so we must be able to adapt our riding to best train the horse. While idealically, yes we will have our weight on the outside seatbone (towards the "driving" leg), this is not always a reality in training as the horse may become unbalanced and the rider is not always so co-ordinated when he is first learning. It is far easier to train the movement first with the rider sitting towards the direction of bend, and when more bend and expression are required, simply shift the weight over the other seatbone.
         
    Sponsored Links
    Advertisement
     
        02-15-2011, 05:02 PM
      #12
    Yearling
    Ok I've pictured it in my head a little better- lets see if I can help with an explanation better this time.

    If im riding in the ring going in a counter clockwise motion, I will make a circle to the left at the top of the ring towards the right side
    Keeping the bend of the circle when I come around to finish the circle on the long side of the ring at this moment I would half halt two steps before finishing the circle, keep my inside leg(left leg closed on the horse at the girth) and shift my weight into my right seatbone as that is the direction we are traveling and do a neck rein to the right(meaning taking both hands and pushing them over to the right) at the beginning of training I overexaggerate things so the horse understands, by putting the rein on the horses neck to the right ur keeping the contact, laying the left rein across the neck telling the shoulders to move off the pressure in that direction and you still have some bend in the neck/head only to where you can see the corner of the eye, you keep this bend from coming off the circle

    Hope this helps a bit
         
        02-15-2011, 07:32 PM
      #13
    slc
    Weanling
    All except for the shifting of the weight. Just twist at the waist the tiniest bit, look where your horse's shoulders are going and put your shoulders the same - and your weight will go where it needs to go - otherwise the horse will fall in, turn in, or you will turn into a giant human pretzel.

    I don't advocate telling people to weight one side of the other to do shoulder in, even to start or teach it to a green horse, and no one has ever taught me to do that in 40 years of dressage lessons, clinics, etc. At the judge's seminar we just attended, she said she got a super score in a class (PSG I think) and maybe won, when she asked the judge why, she said, 'you had the only horse that was not falling in'.

    I sit smack in the middle of the saddle for all that stuff; the leg and seat aids are plenty and turning at the waist and looking where you should, it's all that's needed. I would not want to weight one side more or the lateral work will become falling in.

    Pretent you have a pair of headlights on your chest(yes, yes I know the double entendre) - and aim them the same place as the horse's shoulders.

    Phillipe Karl is the current darling of a very, very vocal small group. He has an extremely limited view of training and how it should be done. He's set up a training program for students to become certified in teaching 'Karl Dressage'. All they have to do is pay him for lessons for three years.

    I've seen some of the graduates. But it was watching him ride, that settled the matter for me.
         
        02-15-2011, 07:47 PM
      #14
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by slc    
    Pretent you have a pair of headlights on your chest(yes, yes I know the double entendre) - and aim them the same place as the horse's shoulders.
    Oh this is an awesome visual. I am definitely doing this
         
        02-15-2011, 07:50 PM
      #15
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by slc    
    All except for the shifting of the weight. Just twist at the waist the tiniest bit, look where your horse's shoulders are going and put your shoulders the same - and your weight will go where it needs to go - otherwise the horse will fall in, turn in, or you will turn into a giant human pretzel.

    I don't advocate telling people to weight one side of the other to do shoulder in, even to start or teach it to a green horse, and no one has ever taught me to do that in 40 years of dressage lessons, clinics, etc. At the judge's seminar we just attended, she said she got a super score in a class (PSG I think) and maybe won, when she asked the judge why, she said, 'you had the only horse that was not falling in'.

    I sit smack in the middle of the saddle for all that stuff; the leg and seat aids are plenty and turning at the waist and looking where you should, it's all that's needed. I would not want to weight one side more or the lateral work will become falling in.

    Pretent you have a pair of headlights on your chest(yes, yes I know the double entendre) - and aim them the same place as the horse's shoulders.

    Phillipe Karl is the current darling of a very, very vocal small group. He has an extremely limited view of training and how it should be done. He's set up a training program for students to become certified in teaching 'Karl Dressage'. All they have to do is pay him for lessons for three years.

    I've seen some of the graduates. But it was watching him ride, that settled the matter for me.
    On a yearly basis as well. As in most places you pay for training by the month, with him you pay by the year, ahead of time.


    Anyways the point is not to overthink your riding - keep even wieght in the reins, sit equally on both sides of the horse and go from there. A shoulder in is just an exaggeration of the bend - basically.
         
        02-15-2011, 07:59 PM
      #16
    slc
    Weanling
    Exactly.

    Headlights - ON!

    That's nothing compared to the advice Henri H. M. L. Van Shaik used to give - and I think a good number of people copied him or it was just a common phrase - 'Sit up straight! Your <let's just say headlights> should be pointed east and west!'

    Someone gave that a really much more 90's look in that 'visualize' page in the back of one of the dressage magazines - drew two eyes up by the person's collarbones...LOL. So you can think of turning your 'eyes' if you want to...LOL.
         
        02-15-2011, 08:22 PM
      #17
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by slc    
    Exactly.

    Headlights - ON!

    That's nothing compared to the advice Henri H. M. L. Van Shaik used to give - and I think a good number of people copied him or it was just a common phrase - 'Sit up straight! Your <let's just say headlights> should be pointed east and west!'

    Someone gave that a really much more 90's look in that 'visualize' page in the back of one of the dressage magazines - drew two eyes up by the person's collarbones...LOL. So you can think of turning your 'eyes' if you want to...LOL.
    As much as I can't bring myself to "like" Anky.. she was a few hours away from my place years ago doing a symposium so I went to watch. She asked one of the demo riders "how do you ride a circle?" and halfway through the long explanation of how this woman circles the horse Anky cut her off and said "No. You turn the horse, that is all!".
    I like the "headlights" analogy too! :P
         
        02-15-2011, 08:33 PM
      #18
    slc
    Weanling
    She's an interesting person. She has gotten tons of criticism ever since she was a Junior rider(on a Thoroughbred), but her autobiography is a very interesting read. She is not as represented on the internet. I will never be comfortable using extreme positioning on my horses, but I don't villify her; that technique has been in use for a long time before her.
         

    Quick Reply
    Please help keep the Horse Forum enjoyable by reporting rude posts.
    Message:
    Options

    Register Now

    In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

    Already have a Horse Forum account?
    Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

    New to the Horse Forum?
    Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.

    User Name:
    Password
    Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
    Password:
    Confirm Password:
    Email Address
    Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
    Email Address:

    Log-in

    Human Verification

    In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


    Old Thread Warning
    This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

    Thread Tools



    All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:52 PM.


    Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
    Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0