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Those Germans Are So Smart!

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  • Germans are smart
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    01-10-2012, 09:27 AM
  #11
Showing
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
As a practical matter, how does that differ from warming the horse up by walking, checking for straightness, turns, going to a trot, checking him in turns, transitions etc for responsiveness, etc?

For example: CONTACT.

What does that mean? Contact with the horse's mind? Contact thru the bit (or halter & reins if you aren't using a bit)? Response to contact with calf and seat? And regardless of which of those it is, when would anyone ever ride a horse without contact - unless contact refers only to a bit?

When I warm up my horse with a rope halter, I want interaction with his mind, and response to my inputs. Is that contact? If it is just the bit, then wouldn't every English rider ride with some contact all the time?

In what sense is it a practical list that helps you get the horse ready for the main event?
Bsms, are you talking about riding english or western? DD was specifically saying english.

You can't ride with the same contact all the time. First, it very much depends on horse (some needs more, some less), second as you progress contact and cues become lighter and lighter, etc. There was a very good thread on explaining communication through the bit and why it's used in, say, dressage, but I'm too lazy to search for it (and I'm too bad of writer to explain in my own words).
     
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    01-10-2012, 09:30 AM
  #12
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
As a practical matter, how does that differ from warming the horse up by walking, checking for straightness, turns, going to a trot, checking him in turns, transitions etc for responsiveness, etc?

For example: CONTACT.

What does that mean? Contact with the horse's mind? Contact thru the bit (or halter & reins if you aren't using a bit)? Response to contact with calf and seat? And regardless of which of those it is, when would anyone ever ride a horse without contact - unless contact refers only to a bit?

When I warm up my horse with a rope halter, I want interaction with his mind, and response to my inputs. Is that contact? If it is just the bit, then wouldn't every English rider ride with some contact all the time?

In what sense is it a practical list that helps you get the horse ready for the main event?
I suppose, but I think we're talking more physical here- Like I said I have never heard of the German training scale, but if I had to put those in order, that would be mine.

As soon as I get on my mare, I ask for a forwards walk, a long and low head WITH contact, suppleness comes from lots of transitions and speed differences within the walk (slow it, forwards, medium) in which there comes the collection and relaxation. As I said to gypsygirl, straightness for me isn't so much straight for riding a whole school without falling out, its being able the horse being able to balance on its own without me holding it up every step of the way.

I would say its practical in the way it gives you what you should aim for, before you move on to the next too soon, and have problems later on. As in you can't move on to collection, if you don't have connection. And to answer 'when wouldn't you ride without contact' it could be a training scale whilst teaching someone to ride, and until they've learnt the basics of contact. In some respects you could ask what time scale does the training scale have in conjunction to rider and horse training.

I really like the 'connection' with mind as well as bit though, I didn't really think about that one!
     
    01-10-2012, 09:32 AM
  #13
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
Same here, and my trainer is a dressage trainer. If the horse is not straight you won't get far either in my experience.

I would say it depends on the horse.

Straight is straight, self balance of the trunk and neck without having a rider holding the horse there the entire time. If I was on my old schoolmaster, straightness would be further up the list. With my youngster, it takes a little bit longer to achieve, so we do other things to help achieve it.
     
    01-10-2012, 09:34 AM
  #14
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
Bsms, are you talking about riding english or western? DD was specifically saying english.

You can't ride with the same contact all the time. First, it very much depends on horse (some needs more, some less), second as you progress contact and cues become lighter and lighter, etc. There was a very good thread on explaining communication through the bit and why it's used in, say, dressage, but I'm too lazy to search for it (and I'm too bad of writer to explain in my own words).

I was indeed.. I can't comment on western AT all, so I won't say anything about it haha.

Not the same contact all the time, but some contact. I have a contact long and low in my warm up and cool down, and our 'working' period is a more active contact.. that's the best I can explain in
     
    01-10-2012, 09:47 AM
  #15
Super Moderator
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuffyDuck    
I was taught to ride in Germany, and have only ever ridden under German instructors who reached the top in dressage- they're a dime a dozen. I reached what you would call third level on my school master before selling him and now bringing on my youngster.

Not once have I ever heard of a training scale, only correct riding ;)

Out of yours, however, if I was going to put it in my order, I would be the same as Val

Impulsion
Contact + Connection
Collection
Relaxation/Straightness
Rhythm
I would definitely change the order, personally. To go with impulsion before the horse is relaxed and straight is building on an unstable foundation, IMO. I would go;

Contact + connection
Relaxation/straightness
Rhythm
Impulsion
Collection

Build the foundation by having a horse willing and able to find the connection, be relaxed enough to use it constructively, and then build the rhythm and impulsion using those tools. Collection is only achievable once these other goals are met.
     
    01-10-2012, 09:54 AM
  #16
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allison Finch    
I would definitely change the order, personally. To go with impulsion before the horse is relaxed and straight is building on an unstable foundation, IMO. I would go;

Contact + connection
Relaxation/straightness
Rhythm
Impulsion
Collection

Build the foundation by having a horse willing and able to find the connection, be relaxed enough to use it constructively, and then build the rhythm and impulsion using those tools. Collection is only achievable once these other goals are met.

Yep, I can see that.. like I said, I've never heard of this before! Trying to figure out how you get on and ride and what you work on whilst sat half asleep in my work chair ;D

What about rythm and impulsion though? I'd be tempted to have them the other way round... depends on the horse, but in my experience, the impulsion is required to get a steady and constant rythm?
     
    01-10-2012, 10:29 AM
  #17
Showing
^^ I still don't quite get how you can ride horse into the contact without having an impulsion. Unless you have a forward horse so impulsion (or at least some approximation of it) is already there. This order definitely would fail on my qh.
     
    01-10-2012, 10:34 AM
  #18
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
^^ I still don't quite get how you can ride horse into the contact without having an impulsion. Unless you have a forward horse so impulsion (or at least some approximation of it) is already there. This order definitely would fail on my qh.

Hm.
I suppose if it was written on a piece of paper, we could write them all on top of one another and do them at the same time

I get that too.. impulsion, and even collection from the hind, to form the connection through the butt, back, and bit. Three B's.. I just made that up.. think I'll use it again

I still have so much to learn.. I suppose it depends, as I said, on horse and rider as well, how developed each is, what they struggle more with etc. My mare HAS impulsion, but we really have to work on straightness and relaxation- not that she isn't relaxed, but you can tell the difference between starting the work, and 15 minutes in, or when I have a lesson.. for starters the trot is easier to sit too haha!
     
    01-10-2012, 11:26 AM
  #19
Showing
Duffy, I was referring to Allison's post (you posted same time I was thinking about the response lol!). One of my horses has too much of impulsion (most of the time), but my very long-bodied qh lacks it badly. So unless I get that impulsion first I'll go nowhere (especially noticeable on transitions).
     
    01-10-2012, 11:29 AM
  #20
Green Broke
Ahh.
I suppose mine still makes sense in reference to yours lol, I agree.. impulsion, and maybe even collection so the hind end is working to get the contact in to the hands... hmmm.. we need anebel kayty or spyder here haha!
     

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