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What to teach her next?

This is a discussion on What to teach her next? within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category

     
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        06-09-2009, 03:58 PM
      #21
    Green Broke
    Sounds like you guys have been working very very hard and making tons of improvement from when you first got her. Thatís great!! What exactly are you asking, what are things that you will eventually get to and reach for? OR, what are some new things to teach her right now? If youíre wanting to know what else is left to learn in the dressage world Iíd suggest looking up some upper level dressage videos on youtube or downloading some USDF tests to see what every level consists of. Then you can see the progression of what comes where and what you can look forward to.

    If you are looking for something new to teach your mare right away, Iíd stop and take into consideration some of the things that other people have posted on here. I think youíre getting offended with people who are saying that your foundation isnít there because youíve worked so darn hard and gotten so much better from where she was. You must remember that dressage is NOT a series of cool movements. Itís a training scale. You achieve one level and you move up. If she started off at a -10 and youíve worked her up to a +5, thatís really really great! But she needs to be at a +10 before going up to the next level otherwise youíre just screwing it up for yourself (and her) later on in the future. You've gotten her this far, you can get her going even better. I would suggest that before moving up.

    Iíd also like to add, give your mare a chance! You've been saying sheís not built for this or that, her necks not right, sheís too old, sheís been doing WP for a long long timeÖ So what?! Do you think that WBís headset started off like that? Itís not arched just because of his conformation and I can assure you he didnít start off looking like that! It was built up from YEARS AND YEARS of hard work and gradually going up the levels. Your mare may be an absolute superstar. WP horses CAN be great at new jobs, old horses CAN learn how to do other things well. She may not be grand prix potential but sheís a cute little mare and you should have quite a bit of success in the dressage ringÖ if you give her a chance!

    If you don't think spyder's right and you think you're much further along then what's shown on your videos, I'd suggest taking a lesson with a good dressage trainer. Even if it's just a lesson or two. Get her opinion on how you're doing and what you should work on. Honestly, I'd have to side with Spyder. But like you said, we don't have any proof from some old videos so I'd get a 2nd opinion in person.

         
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        06-09-2009, 04:32 PM
      #22
    Foal
    Travers (haunches inn) as well as renver (haunches out) are lateral movements that produce three tracks.

    In travers the horses hindquarters are bend slightly to the inside of the arena so that he is bent in the direction of the movement. Meanwhile his shoulders are still on the oustide track (the one closet to the rail) If you were to look behind you in the sand you would see 3 tracks if prints as opposed 2 (when your horse is going stright) The outer track made by the outside foreleg, the middle track is created by the inside foreleg and outside hind leg, and the inside track made by the inside foreleg.

    Renver is the same thing reversed. So the hroses shoulders will now be on the inside track, while his haunches remain on the rail.

    A half pass is a sidestep in the sense that it is a lateral movement, but that's where the similarities end. In a half pass your horse must be moving forward and sideways with a slight bend in the direction in which he's traveling. It takes more collection and balance than a leg yield, where your horses body remains straight while moving sideways.
         
        06-09-2009, 04:50 PM
      #23
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Royal Affair    
    Travers (haunches inn) as well as renver (haunches out) are lateral movements that produce three tracks.

    In travers the horses hindquarters are bend slightly to the inside of the arena so that he is bent in the direction of the movement. Meanwhile his shoulders are still on the oustide track (the one closet to the rail) If you were to look behind you in the sand you would see 3 tracks if prints as opposed 2 (when your horse is going stright) The outer track made by the outside foreleg, the middle track is created by the inside foreleg and outside hind leg, and the inside track made by the inside foreleg.

    Renver is the same thing reversed. So the hroses shoulders will now be on the inside track, while his haunches remain on the rail.

    A half pass is a sidestep in the sense that it is a lateral movement, but that's where the similarities end. In a half pass your horse must be moving forward and sideways with a slight bend in the direction in which he's traveling. It takes more collection and balance than a leg yield, where your horses body remains straight while moving sideways.
    Some very important things that were not mentioned, in the travers the forehand of the horse travels forward as if the entire horse were traveling straight, the front legs do not cross or else it becomes a leg yield, the haunches then bend around the inside leg of the rider and in a true travers there are going to be 4 tracks. A 3 track travers or working travers as I have heard it called is good for developing the idea of travers with a horse who is not solidly collected yet.
    In a renvers, the horse is again bent in the direction of travel but as said the shoulders are brought away from the track. The horse ends up being counterbent. Again the forehand travels straight and the haunches bend around the rider's outside leg.
    A sidestep is not a lateral movement and neither is a leg yield. A half pass is much like a true travers on a diagonal line, the shoulders must stay "leading" even though the horse is parallel to the wall. Half pass requires solid collection and is developed through renvers, travers and shoulder in.

    I agree with upnover's latest post and would also like to add that if you know what you're doing but don't know what the difference between a half pass and sidestep are you should at least watch some youtube videos of dressage or pick up a book before claiming these things. Also, I would say that Spyder out of all of us would be the best one to say how you would do at a dressage competition, and keep in mind also at a dressage competition the judge doesn't know you, your horse or your trainer and only has 5 minutes to judge you, not even an entire ride.
    You are the one that asked for advice, advice was given to you now eat a grain of salt and take it or leave it. :) Good luck!
         
        06-09-2009, 05:43 PM
      #24
    Foal
    ^I was hoping you would go into more detail, I only know the basics and always learn something from your posts.
         
        06-09-2009, 05:58 PM
      #25
    Yearling
    Well I guess peeps got in before me to explain the travers and renvers but did you look at the link I posted? I like the pictures on there that show you the horses position/flexion and placement of the feet. I agree with watching videos of other riders to see the exactly how it works too!

    Lesson 16 - Travers and half-pass - Classical dressage

    Good luck with your future training :) Your mare is gorgeous!
         
        06-09-2009, 06:01 PM
      #26
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by riccil0ve    
    Thank you Pinto Pony. =]

    But what are the traver and renver? And is a halfpass the same as a sidestep? Because we can move over without moving forward. We have to do lateral work to warm up, because she simply won't move over if I we don't. I appreciate the help, I really do. Right now we are only doing things at the walk, and eventually would like to move up to things at the trot.

    As to all of Spyder's posts, I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING. I know she needs work on the three basic gaits, I'm not an idiot, and I'm not rushing her. I'm not asking her to do a canter piourette or a piaffe, all our movements have been done at the walk, and I've found it really helps her throughout the ride, and she's improved much more quickly since I started doing them. And since you have never seen me on my horse, you have not seen us work together in anything but a video of ONE ride, I really don't think that gives you the right to say I would struggle to score well in a training level dressage test. You don't know me, or my horse, nor have you any REAL proof of how we would do.
    If you have a more recent video I would be happy to view it but that was the video you supplied at my asking. As Anebel stated I have seen hundreds of strange horses/riders over the space of 5 minutes and judged each test fairly. Some were happy and some were not, but they got what they paid for...a fair evaluation of their horse AT THAT TIME.
         
        06-10-2009, 12:56 AM
      #27
    Trained
    Spyder, you do know what you're talking about. I get it, I do. I know both my horse and I have things to improve on, but the way you replied was just plain rude. I did say in my original post that I wanted to know what I could eventually teach her. Eventually being the key word. I'm not looking for anything right now. I taught her to side-step because she was having such a hard time moving away from my leg. We have kinda toyed around with a little leg yielding in our warm up, and I noticed it really helps us out during the ride. Then I started toying with a haunches in. Those are what I know. Which is why I asked what some other things we could do were. Since I started doing these things, she's gotten so much better being straight, being round, bending, flexing, stretching, everything. It's just been all around a good thing for us. I'm not doing a lot of it either. We do one leg yield down the wall, one haunches in for a few strides, and then we do the same the other way. If she is particularly stubborn about moving away, we do some side-steps too. I do know how to work with her, and how to get good things out of her, even if I don't know the difference between a half-pass and a sidestep. I asked for "advanced" movements because that's where I want to go, I wouldn't push her before she was ready. I know I can't go out there and ask for a flying lead change, her canter is no where near balanced enough for anything but 20m circles and spirals. I do not use her age, her breed, her conformation as an excuse, but it is how she is. She's improved, but I cannot ride her and expect the same things I would from an Arab. My mare rarely disappoints me, and I don't want to seem like I wasn't giving her a chance to succeed, because I know she's already succeeded.

    And on the dressage test scoring deal, it would be different if I were actually performing a dressage test. If I had posted a video of a test and was scored in the 50's, that's one thing, but this was a schooling ride, a good three weeks ago, and I can't even remember what we were trying to work on. We go into every ride working on the thing she needs to work on that day. Sometimes it's transitions, sometimes it's circles, sometimes it's just some good solid trot work. I think it's unfair to take a random schooling session and judging it like I performed a test. If I can come up with a test and get it taped, I will gladly post it. I do appreciate input, this situation was I wanted to know what we could reach for, not how we were doing now.

    Sorry this was so long.
         
        06-10-2009, 06:36 AM
      #28
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by riccil0ve    
    Spyder, you do know what you're talking about. I get it, I do. I know both my horse and I have things to improve on, but the way you replied was just plain rude. I did say in my original post that I wanted to know what I could eventually teach her. Eventually being the key word. I'm not looking for anything right now. I taught her to side-step because she was having such a hard time moving away from my leg. We have kinda toyed around with a little leg yielding in our warm up, and I noticed it really helps us out during the ride. Then I started toying with a haunches in. Those are what I know. Which is why I asked what some other things we could do were. Since I started doing these things, she's gotten so much better being straight, being round, bending, flexing, stretching, everything. It's just been all around a good thing for us. I'm not doing a lot of it either. We do one leg yield down the wall, one haunches in for a few strides, and then we do the same the other way. If she is particularly stubborn about moving away, we do some side-steps too. I do know how to work with her, and how to get good things out of her, even if I don't know the difference between a half-pass and a sidestep. I asked for "advanced" movements because that's where I want to go, I wouldn't push her before she was ready. I know I can't go out there and ask for a flying lead change, her canter is no where near balanced enough for anything but 20m circles and spirals. I do not use her age, her breed, her conformation as an excuse, but it is how she is. She's improved, but I cannot ride her and expect the same things I would from an Arab. My mare rarely disappoints me, and I don't want to seem like I wasn't giving her a chance to succeed, because I know she's already succeeded.

    And on the dressage test scoring deal, it would be different if I were actually performing a dressage test. If I had posted a video of a test and was scored in the 50's, that's one thing, but this was a schooling ride, a good three weeks ago, and I can't even remember what we were trying to work on. We go into every ride working on the thing she needs to work on that day. Sometimes it's transitions, sometimes it's circles, sometimes it's just some good solid trot work. I think it's unfair to take a random schooling session and judging it like I performed a test. If I can come up with a test and get it taped, I will gladly post it. I do appreciate input, this situation was I wanted to know what we could reach for, not how we were doing now.

    Sorry this was so long.

    Although I can't speak for the others just is what I and I think the other dressage experienced members feel.

    If I was you and got what I had posted in the first post I would have asked what was wrong with the three basic gaits and how can they be improved. Instead the post was dismissed out of hand and you kept asking for people to tell you what to do next. You never ask anyone what is needed to improve the W/T/C but rather just what else to do. This tells us that as you had already posted that you feel that what you have done or are doing is fine and in your eyes good enough to be considering new additions. All of us poke and play around with things that we have not done yet but we are always dilligent in improving what we have already done.

    FROM YOUR POSTS the impression you have given me is that the W/T/C is good enough that asking about how it can be improved is simply not necessary because as you said you know what you are doing. The trot has no impulsion,there is no proper contact, it is not supple nor is it straight.

    So I ask you what do you plan on doing in making your horse overcome the areas I just described better?

    The walk is the best gait your horse has, but doing all your work (extensions/collections) in this gait is a sure way to ruin a gait that has very little impulsion of its own. In dressage 85% of the work needed to improve the horse is done in the trot and you improve the canter through the trot not the walk.

    And lastly I stated in my first long post here that I was answering your other thread regarding the videos together and you ASKED they be critiqued so while I didn't put half the post on one thread and half on the other I have responded to your direct requests.
         

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