Would I be penalized?
 
 

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Would I be penalized?

This is a discussion on Would I be penalized? within the Dressage forums, part of the English Riding category
  • Knee action in horses
  • Horses with high knee action

 
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    05-14-2009, 07:18 PM
  #1
Weanling
Would I be penalized?

I was just thinking about this earlier today and figured I would ask you guys. I show Morgan horses and the current trend is to have huge moving hunter horses, essentially they are the english/park horses that have been dropped down to hunter horses. I hope to start whatever horse I get from trading my gelding out with this breeder I have contacted, in dressage and possibly show the horse at a few dressage shows. I feel that it puts an excellent foundation on the horse, not to mention improves my riding as well. As with most morgans, even the sport morgans have more knee/motion than the typical stock horse, would I be penalized in a dressage competition on a big moving horse (lots of knee)? Even if I would be penalized, it would not stop me from showing the horse since I would be doing so for more experience with the horse. It is just something I have been wondering about.
     
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    05-14-2009, 11:57 PM
  #2
Trained
I don't see why you couldn't do Training Level Dessage - there are even localized Dressage Shows that aren't as big as USDF shows that you could try.

Spyder and Anebel would definitely beable to help you out here. They are both Dressage Judges.
     
    05-15-2009, 12:15 AM
  #3
Banned
The only part that will be difficult for you is showing true extensions with ANY horse that has high knee action. There are in fact some WB types that have this difficulty and will do fine in dressage. They just can't match the full blown extensions that the more flatter gaited horses show.

Some judges may not like the action and other judges will accept it as part of what the horse is. No judge should mark you down specifically but the overall collective marks may be less than you would hope for.
     
    05-15-2009, 06:22 PM
  #4
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder    
The only part that will be difficult for you is showing true extensions with ANY horse that has high knee action. There are in fact some WB types that have this difficulty and will do fine in dressage. They just can't match the full blown extensions that the more flatter gaited horses show.

Some judges may not like the action and other judges will accept it as part of what the horse is. No judge should mark you down specifically but the overall collective marks may be less than you would hope for.
Thank you! That answers my question perfectly.
     
    05-16-2009, 12:27 AM
  #5
Trained
Just posting from experience - there are two morgans on the dressage circuit around here. One is fairly solid in third level and the other is beginning second. Neither do markedly well, but if they are solid in their work and very steady they will get 60s. The classes are then being won by scores in the 70s though.
Overall, some judges are going to view the horse's movement as a fault and mark the entire test down movement by movement, and other judges are going to accept it as a conformation thing and score the test according to how the work is performed, and will mark down only in the "gaits" portion of the collectives.
And unlike Spyder I don't believe that it is the extensions that cause a lower mark. Many people view the movment of these horses (fresians, morgans, etc..) as being "out behind" and not truly carrying. And with the high knee action, many horses then trail behind and do not match the knee action with hock action.

If the work is good and correct and not "breed-y" looking then the horse will do fairly well. If the horse comes in looking like a breed show horse with the excessive knee action and nothing going on behind then don't expect much.
     
    05-16-2009, 08:50 PM
  #6
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~*~anebel~*~    
And unlike Spyder I don't believe that it is the extensions that cause a lower mark. Many people view the movment of these horses (fresians, morgans, etc..) as being "out behind" and not truly carrying. And with the high knee action, many horses then trail behind and do not match the knee action with hock action.

If the work is good and correct and not "breed-y" looking then the horse will do fairly well. If the horse comes in looking like a breed show horse with the excessive knee action and nothing going on behind then don't expect much.
agreed. The extensions - or lack of extensions, aren't winning or losing the classes. Its one movement (performed twice I think in 4th) but a horse with a crappy extension is not going to have bad marks all around because of that extension. ANY breed of horse, whether its warmblood, arabian, morgan or walrus, starts losing marks when it appears as if they have nothing coming from behind. High knee action isn't a bad thing; in fact, warmblood breeders try to breed for it for dressage (try googling quaterback) , as opposed to the daisy cutter movement in hunters, but there has to be something to back it up. An engine to power the boat ;)

Here's some inspiration for you; a 3/4 Morgan schooling Grand Prix.
     
    05-16-2009, 10:00 PM
  #7
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyhuntress    
agreed. The extensions - or lack of extensions, aren't winning or losing the classes.

I don't believe I posted anything about a horse losing because they may get a lower mark on one movement or even in the collective marks.

The video you presented while showing GP movements are not done at the quality expected for GP level and that particular horse is not showing very much knee action at all.

The OP is at the lower level of dressage so I will show her a video at her level that she can relate to. The following is a test on a breed that is normally associated with knee action competing at the lower levels.



And another one schooling. A little more knee action that some judges will accept and others will not.


Having judged all types and sizes I can tell you that knee action can be good and bad. As you progress up the dressge levels the higher action (and all the following assumes the hind end is working according to the level shown) is helpful in the collected movements (piaffe/passage) but detrimental in the extensions.

For while the hind end may be doing its job correctly and reaching forward the front end is not. Hence some movements no matter how good the haunches working will get penalized. Dressage is not only about doing the movements correctly but in how elegant and pleasing that movement appears in its entire context.
     

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