Next Step? - Page 3

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Next Step?

This is a discussion on Next Step? within the Driving forums, part of the Riding Horses category

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    01-11-2010, 07:15 PM
I think we're losing sight of what was trying to be accomplished here...

The tire initially was just to see her reaction to having something "following" her. She didn't bat an eyelash however, so naturally, the next step is to find something that will adequately deal with some weight being added to what she's dragging.

I'm aware that one pressure point on the cercingle is not a desired outcome, but the cercingle didn't MOVE when we dragged it behind her. Another thing you have to factor in is that she was only dragging it for 10 minutes and it wasn't fixed to her. It was looped through one of the rings and held by hand, so I could drop it on a whim had she overreacted to it. The purpose of this wasn't to teach her how to haul weight, only to see what her initial reaction to dragging something would be.

I'm not going to use old seatbelts to rig a harness for her, I have a chest plate that will do just fine. I prefer to keep my used car parts seperate from my pony training...I'm also not going to continue using something if it's rubbing her. I'm new to driving and everything involved, but I have good common sense and am able to tell when something doesn't fit or isn't working the way it should.

Anything I use to simulate shafts for a cart will be attached in the same fashion as the tire to drop it if need be, I'm not overly concerned about anything breaking and stabbing her. I'll take a look in the woods for some logs to use instead, but PVC plumbing piping is what I have at the moment.

Although I think the topic may have strayed from the original intent, I do appreciate all the advise being given...just wanted to clarify the purpose of what I was doing.
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    01-12-2010, 05:19 AM
Yes, I thought that is what you were talking about; the method I originally recomended about a month or so back, on several contentious threads about breaking to drive! However, NICE that we are now agreeing. ..i do want to say to the o.p. ,regarding pulling from the roller or surcingale; that apart from the fact that the weight is on totally the wrong part of the horses anatomy , she should also be worried that the weight pulled from it could cause it to twist and pinch, and also it is putting pressure o the underside of the horse, where there should be none at all. Also, if she was to try jimmy's suggestion of temporarily rigging up a breast collar using a seat belt, she would have to fix a neck strap to stop it falling down. It would really be far easier and safer, and more comfortable for her horse,to get a cheap breast collar, because to attatch it all together you will either have to sew it or knot it- sewing is too much trouble, and might not be strong enough, if you used knots to tie it to the neckstrap, you will then create pressure points to rub the horse, and once you create discomfort, you will be creating a lot of problems as your horse will acsociate pulling with pain. It is best to do it correctly, right from the start. For a cart, I would suggest a to wheeler with a low entry, so that you can get out of it to go to head in a hurry. I would also recomend always having one person in the cart at all times, and another that can go to head if the need be,
    01-12-2010, 05:58 AM
Also want to add, that it is best to get someone to walk behind with you, prior to getting her to pull the wheel. Get this person to drag a broom or rake, and then progress to a plastic feed bag with a little gravel or small stones int it. This can be shaken as you walk, to create a variety of noises. Also later, once she is pulling the wheel, get another person to hit the wheel with a stick as you longrein. Start little taps and then louder, start on the rubber, and when she accepts that without worry, progress to hitting the metal rim as well, lightly, but a bit louder as you go on. Put variety into the sounds which your helper makes. Don't do it all at once, do different noises on different days, later you can do sessions where several different sounds are made. Do all stages gradually so that horse just gets used to a lot of different noises behind her. When she is going well, it is also a good idea to get her pulling the wheel over various surfaces- when you get onto the ashpalt or tarmac road surface, that rim is going to make a lot of noise. ( grating and clanging) so she needs to be prepared. After she is happy with the road sound, try her on gravel, that is a different sound again, and also so through some tall weeds or grass to get a good whoosing sound. And if you are agile going over rough ground with dips and uneven surface is good. Try to aim the wheel so it goes over potholes part on hole and part out of it, so that the wheel dips and the traces will be felt against the horses side. She will also feel an uneven distribution on her chest. All of this is going to make for a horse that will not panic when the unexpected happens when you are driving, so it is well worth taking the extra time, in terms of weeks, to achieve a bombproof relaxed horse. Also I would not put her into any sort of shafts, until she is bombproofed with the wheel. When she is unfazed by all of the stuff the wheel wheel gets her used to, you then move on to introducing the shafts. Before I go on to shafts, I personally use 2 timbers or even straight branches cut from a tree, they need only be the length from about 6" in front of horses front leg- (dont let go past front of chest) to the horses end of rump. Aim for about 2" diameter..get someone to lead at head, while you longrein, she will need help in turning left and right to begin with as the shaft will come into play against her side. Once she gets that, add the wheel again, making sure that the shafts wont get caught up in anything, and spend a few sessions letting her get used to having something rigind against her sides, while pulling weight. But definitely I would not even think of introducing shafts until she is unflappable with the wheel. And I strongly recomend always having an assistant with you.... also, the wheel should have a swingle tree attatched to it, which is a piece of wood tied on across the top of the rim- you will need to experiment and position it so the wheel doesnt turn over. Tie it to the holes in the metal rim, so it doesnt come apart, but with enough play to let the ends move forward and back about 1". This will prevent soreness to horse, and also keep the traces apart. I carve out a notch all around the diameter, about an inch from end, to loop baling twine around which is then attatched to the traces- that way the loops don't come off, and if you have to get the wheel unattatched in a hurry, your assistant can always doit quickly by cutting the twine. Also, always have a knife or scissors with you so you can cut her free in an emergency, and always have someone to assist you, especially when introducing new things.
    01-12-2010, 06:29 AM
Well, as I was taking all of the time and trouble to advise to the best of my ability with 2 posts on the subject, it seems you were posting a reply of your own. Obviously you are doing just fine without my imput , so I will butt out.
    01-12-2010, 12:34 PM
Green Broke
I was sitting with Shay-la when she made this post, and I went on to make my own post about Jynx in the training forum and then proceeded to check this topic half an hour afterwards. There were no replies, so Shay-la post was here long before you took the "time and trouble" to write a novel.

Your suggestions are welcome and will definitely be taken into consideration, but there are many ways of doing things and this one worked well. The idea of pressure being exerted forcefully on her girth area is a little ridiculous to me personally, as many horses are trained to rope which essentially equals several hundred pounds of cow hitting the end of a rope and the entire girth area of the horse taking the brunt of it. My Arab mare is trained to pull people on a sled with a rope dallied to my horn which equals most of the pressure coming from her girth area. There is nothing wrong with a horse learning to accept pressure to that area, as it prepares them for other things as well.

It was a one time thing, and we will be adding the breast collar of a saddle to Eve the next time we ask her to pull anything. The tire was light enough that I spent 20 minutes riding my Arab mare bareback and dragging it in my hand. If I have no issues dragging it through snow for 20 minutes, a 1,000 pound horse isn't going to feel much pressure whatsoever regardless of how it's attached.

We appreciate the opinions, but not being told that we're "doing it wrong". It was a one time thing with the entire purpose of it being for her to become used to something dragging behind her, not for her to feel the weight of anything. We would have used cardboard if the winds didn't make it a stupid idea. If she was better trained, one of us would have simply hopped on top of her and dallied it to the saddle horn, for virtually the exact same effect as we created. That is how I break all my horses to become used to dragging something. Unfortunately, Eve is a youngster and only greenbroke so this seemed a better method and it worked fine.
    01-12-2010, 01:38 PM
By the original post it looked like she was asking for help as she said she didn't have any experience and wanted to know what was next. Just offering some simple tips that could be used or not and explaining why it might be revelant. As someone getting back into driving after 25 yrs and having had a few recent lessons it was nice to get all the info I could and have someone point out a few things I wasn't noticing.
    01-12-2010, 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by churumbeque    
By the original post it looked like she was asking for help as she said she didn't have any experience and wanted to know what was next. Just offering some simple tips that could be used or not and explaining why it might be revelant. As someone getting back into driving after 25 yrs and having had a few recent lessons it was nice to get all the info I could and have someone point out a few things I wasn't noticing.
thats the way I understood it as well,and although lillie does go into detaail a bit I thought the mates post was a bit ignorant towards her
    01-12-2010, 02:00 PM
Green Broke
No that's fine, we understand that. We're always open to suggestion and ideas - it's just that after explaining the why's, lillie is still acting like we've somehow harmed Eve by doing this, and I was just hoping to elaborate on why I personally don't see the harm whatsoever.

And no offense, but lillie has bombarded this topic, as well as sent Shay-la a private message with the exact same information, and then proceeds to get snooty because she didn't bother looking at the topic before replying again because she didn't reply for hours after Shay-la had posted. Advice is fine, but we're responsible, educated and experienced horse people who have common sense. I just don't see why it's necessary to continue beating the dead horse so to speak, and then getting mad when someone doesn't agree with you. Lillie's advice was definitely helpful on many levels, but she can't seem to move past this "you made her drag a tire with a surcingle" issue after explaining it numerous times. We don't think what we did was "wrong", so we can just agree to disagree, no reason to get uppity about it.
    01-12-2010, 02:06 PM
Fair enough
    01-13-2010, 11:06 AM
Lmao jimmy I have to laugh because I just her a comedian go on a big rampage joke about the use of "fair enough". Oh god I was funny. Then you said that... hahaha. I have to find a link to it and send you it because I just went rolling when I saw that....

Anyhow back on topic here....

I can see where people get this from, lillie is very.... mmmm.... set on her ways of doing things. I have experienced this is posting before in the driving section on her replies. So I can understand.

I don't think what was done was wrong. Its not like you hooked her up to a cart and went with it tied to a ring on the surcingle or something. Personally, when we race, the breast collar isnt even really used the way you guys use it. Its just there to keep the harness from sliding backwards. They really don't use to to "pull" from. I have been in a hurry before and forgotten to put it on (myyyy baddddd) and it didnt injure the horse or anything. The only thing that really potentially happens there is that the harness slips back... THEN you are suddenly driving a bucking bronco! I've seen it! Not pretty! Lol. When we jog daily the breast collars are pretty loose, and they just hang there, they don't tighten when the horse begins to jog, therefore theyre really not pulling from it.

Also our the race bikes (sulkies) that we use are made so that different ones provide different amounts of "lift" on a horse. Some have more or less lift than others. This puts pressure on the girth. So really, there is nothing to say she's damaging her horse by putting pressure on the girth. Horses need to accept pressure on their whole bodies.

I think what happening here is good. I don't think their damaging the horse at all.

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