Achieving Collection? Hmm... - Page 2
 
 

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Achieving Collection? Hmm...

This is a discussion on Achieving Collection? Hmm... within the English Riding forums, part of the Riding Horses category

     
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        12-29-2009, 08:57 PM
      #11
    Yearling
    Why is she on the way when she is putting the head into a false frame? (sorry OP... but it is what it is.)

    Contact is not needed, but correct contact and a horse moving it's neck forward and up is needed. Your horse is moving her neck back and in.

    Curious, is the first picture from the western barn at Findlay?
         
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        12-29-2009, 09:43 PM
      #12
    Trained
    [quote=mayfieldk;504566]Why is she on the way when she is putting the head into a false frame? (sorry OP... but it is what it is.)

    I think, in the three horses in those pictures, the OP's horse appears to be the most receptive to the bit and will most likely seek the contact when ridden correctly instead of brace against the bit. If that's the case, then she is on her way to at least a correct start.
         
        12-29-2009, 10:07 PM
      #13
    Super Moderator
    The OP is riding in a kimberwick style bit. This bit does not encourage a horse to move into the bridle and use contact constructively, in my opinion. But it will teach them to back away from it.

    You might consider trying a french link or simple snaffle and try again.
         
        12-29-2009, 10:12 PM
      #14
    Trained
    I don't understand why people always refer to collection before they have even acheived a horse with a swinging back on 'on the bit'??? Collection comes after these basics, collection comes from a soft back, from correct muscling, from correct work, a horse that at least knows basic laterals etc. Hence why you don't see any 'collected' paces until elementary in dressage. Below elementary, all judges want to see is the horse working actively forward, seeking the bridle and swinging the back.

    So really, the OP is not working on attaining collection, but more so just to understand how to get her horse working over it's back and into her hands.
         
        12-29-2009, 11:02 PM
      #15
    Foal
    I didn't read all the posts.

    But I would just like to say a good way to test if a horse is carrying himself (collection/comiing over the back) is to give with the reins (or let your horse chew the reins out of your hands) and see if your horse stretches down to seek the contact with the bit, if he does than you are working over the horses back and working from back to front.

    If your horse raises his head and looks around you were in a false frame.

    To me in the pics it doesn't seem that your horse is in a false frame and that you have the right idea).

    Your horse doesn't seem to be broken in the 3rd vertabrae (except in the first photo of you standing your horse is behind the bit there.) you need to push him into his halt/his bridle the same way you would in the trot and canter.

    By the way you wrote in your OP it seems like you have the correct way.

    Pushing your horse into the bridle from his hind legs so he works over the back.

    I do believe you first have to have relaxation, rythym and straightness before collection.


    If you feel your horse get heavy in your hand that is a sign he needs more forward from your leg. Also if he wants to stretch down in trot let him ( I know alot of people who want to keep there horse head up and "on the bit" and never let them stretch down and do a stretchy circle so there horse seeks the contact and works over there back MORE.

    It is a great exercise.

    I hate the term "on the bit" because it brings image of just a horses neck being on the bit instead of the horses energy moving from the impulsion of the hindlegs over the back and up the neck to the bit. Also I hate the term "frame" as it is brings the same image as above. And doesn't allow one to think of elastic contact and softness.

    I would much rather think "is he through?" and working over his back?

    NOW FOR THE PICS:

    Pics of him standing: he is being brought into a frame by the hands and not from coming up from his hindlegs overhis back, as I said you have to push your horse into the bridle just like in walk,trot and canter for him not to be in a false fram and behind the bit. When you halt, think squeeze with your legs and block forward motion with your hands so that he halts under himself.

    The riding pics: in the second to last pic it looks good, your horse is infront of the verticle( it is a good thing and means he is using his baskc and hindlegs) and seems to be raising his back and reaching under himself. He is not broken in the 3rd (good thing).

    The last pic he has lost impulsion but is not being forced into a frame by the hands. More forwardness and he will regain the contact and reach farther under himself.
         
        12-29-2009, 11:27 PM
      #16
    Trained
    ^^ I don't think the OP's horse is using his back in those riding photos. The back is hollow, with the croup higher than the wither, and is no where near tracking it. It simply has it's head in and is pottering around with no engagement.
         
        12-29-2009, 11:41 PM
      #17
    Foal
    If you read my entire post ( badly typo'ed but it was after 10 mins and couldn't edit) I wrote " more forwardness and he will regain the contact and reach farther under himself. " which to me means that I believe the horse isn't reaching under to his full potential"

    We also do not know the conformation of this horse (maybe he is built a bit downhill? He is also NOT being ridden on level ground in the second to last picture and looks like is riding on downhill ground.

    In the last pic he looks to be making a turn (or dropping his shoulder but the riders head is slightly turned so I will assume turn) .

    Good teachers point out the good AND bad qualities instead of just the bad.
         
        12-30-2009, 01:22 AM
      #18
    Banned
    What level of experience do you have ShaNeighNeigh ?
         
        12-30-2009, 01:39 AM
      #19
    Trained
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ShaNeighNeigh    
    if you read my entire post ( badly typo'ed but it was after 10 mins and couldn't edit) I wrote " more forwardness and he will regain the contact and reach farther under himself. " which to me means that I believe the horse isn't reaching under to his full potential"

    We also do not know the conformation of this horse (maybe he is built a bit downhill? He is also NOT being ridden on level ground in the second to last picture and looks like is riding on downhill ground.

    In the last pic he looks to be making a turn (or dropping his shoulder but the riders head is slightly turned so I will assume turn) .

    good teachers point out the good AND bad qualities instead of just the bad.
    Yep but am I a teacher? Nope. And don't plan to be one either ;) PLus, if my coach told me that the sun shined out of my backside every lesson I would find someone who nitpicked. If you don't hear the negatives- along with an explanation of WHY it is a negative, you're never going to learn. And I think I have stated pretty clearly the sort of work the OP should do if she wants to get her horse through.
    And down hill.... so? I'll have to dig out a photo of a Qhxappy mare that I had for a while. SHE was downhill, the OP's horse has nothing on her ;) And I competed her at State dressage championships up to elementary training some medium movements etc. within a year, from having done nothing other than a few trail rides.
    I really don't care if the horse is downhill if you're just wanting to get it over its back.
         
        12-30-2009, 02:24 AM
      #20
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kayty    
    Yep but am I a teacher? Nope. And don't plan to be one either ;) PLus, if my coach told me that the sun shined out of my backside every lesson I would find someone who nitpicked. If you don't hear the negatives- along with an explanation of WHY it is a negative, you're never going to learn. And I think I have stated pretty clearly the sort of work the OP should do if she wants to get her horse through.
    And down hill.... so? I'll have to dig out a photo of a Qhxappy mare that I had for a while. SHE was downhill, the OP's horse has nothing on her ;) And I competed her at State dressage championships up to elementary training some medium movements etc. within a year, from having done nothing other than a few trail rides.
    I really don't care if the horse is downhill if you're just wanting to get it over its back.
    hmm, I don't know why you are reading into my posts and putting words in them that aren't there... but here is more clarification for you.

    I didn't say to only point out the positives either. Positives and negatives need to be accompanied together or else people will get frustrated.

    Also if you don't want to teach, why are you on this thread?

    Just to clarify. I saw nowhere in the original post the question " is my horse collected?" ( though I will look again) it seems she wanted to know if her horse was through and working from back to front properly.

    But I will humor you and carry on the subject of collection

    As you (or someone)stated in an earlier post, collection and self carriage takes muscle and proper conditioning....so if this horse is downhill and just starting to get proper conditioning, it is hardly fair for us to pick it apart. Even with correct riding it will take time.

    I am saying is we don't know alot about this horse's conformation ,fitness level etc for us to pic it apart or the riding.

    We only know what we see from a picture that is only what is happening that second.

    You can take a picture of a horse that is being ridden FEI grand prix and have a split second look downhill and not tracking up and the rest of the test look amazing.

    If you looked at the main subject of my post I pointed out a good way for the OP HERSELF to test if her horse is in self carriage. Not us. And explain how a horse reaches over his back from the impulsion of the hindlegs.

    The top of the pyramid scale is collection. But you can't have collection without impulsion and coming over the horse back, you keep talking like it is a different thing all together and that they are seperate. When really collection is the end point of impulsion

    Collection is recycling the energy of the hindlegs over the back up the neck and back again.

    collection is inextricably connected to extension.

    I agreed the horse could come under himself more.

    Also a horse CAN be high withered and low in the croup and still not be collected and be INVERTED (leg mover).

    Examples would be of a horse doing piaffe and have the animation of the front end and raising, but no lowering of the croup and no animation of the hock. I see a lot of Grand prix horses today with all forhand action no hindleg action.

    Which would be called a flat,contracted piaffe.
    Just because a horse raises his front end doesn't mean he is collected. There also has to be lowering of the hindend.
         

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