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Collection Vs. Headset

8K views 47 replies 15 participants last post by  waresbear 
#1 ·
Scooter, the Quarter horse I've been riding for the last few months has his issues...

His entire family were multi thousand dollar Barrel Racers, but I guess he didn't get the genes because he's such a little eventer. More jump then turns, I guess. But we've been having an issue with collection lately. He will fight it, and I was told that on a normal basis he will continue pulling with his front legs instead of pushing with the back, and his head set is just that, a head set.

I was wondering, what are some exercises I can do with him to gain strength in his hind end and make him push, instead of just rounding his neck and acting like he is?

(And while I'm at it, anyone know and tips for the days when his canter is extremely flat and so is his jump?)

I'm just looking for people who might know some training tips I can work on, anything at all.
 
#2 ·
In order to get real collection you need to tighten you reins until he gives his nose and release, this will teach him to carry his head and give to the bit. Once he does this (he may already do that much) but push him forward at the trot to an extended trot (posting trot) and drive him forward with your seat. All the while keeping his neck and top line level while his nose stays vertical. This manuever will build up endurance, balance, hindquarters and topline
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#5 ·
In order to get real collection you need to tighten you reins until he gives his nose and release, this will teach him to carry his head and give to the bit. Once he does this (he may already do that much) but push him forward at the trot to an extended trot (posting trot) and drive him forward with your seat. All the while keeping his neck and top line level while his nose stays vertical. This manuever will build up endurance, balance, hindquarters and topline
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I'm assuming as this is posted in the english riding, its english riding, and I am not too sure if there are any differences between english/western.

Firstly, I think what you're trying to describe is a half halt. You don't just use the reins though. I have copied this from a previous thread I replied to as I feel that this is also what you require, OP. Headset and collection come from working from behind (not dragging on the front) and a relaxed back from the horse, half halts, leg and seat all used correctly from yourself.

Secondly, coming 'round' or on the bit comes from a mix of things, not just the bit.
You need to ensure your horse is warmed up correctly. When I warm up in walk and trot, I never go whole school, I have single loop serpentines, three loop serpentines, 20 m circles, change the rein through half the school, change out of the corner, 10m circles in walk. Anything, use your imagination.

If you struggle to get your horse to listen to your aids, and he doesn't work from behind, transitions. However, correct transitions. When you ask for walk to trot, or trot to walk/ halt it has to be on the dot, not teeper down in to it. When you think walk, he walk's. You have to prepare the horse with half halts on the outside rein, let him know something new is coming. You get him ready with your legs and seat then BAM, do it. Don't pull back on him. As you do more and practise more, it'll become easier.

Also position. When the horse is working correctly from behind, he'll start to swing in his back, and naturally drop his head, they do it in the field, free lunging, anything. Its comfy for them. You want to have him in an outline though... so, you need quiet quiet hands. I was always told my outside rein is my 'working' rein, and my inside rein is my 'direction' rein, direction as in left right, I'm combo with leg and seat, and also head position. If your horse resists, don't pull and fight, give and take. Your trainer should be able to explain this clearly to you. Keep sending the horse forwards, though.

Lower your hand position if you need to, and don't expect the horse to come up and neat and tidy straight away, it is very exhausting for a horse, roundess and suppleness does not mean he has to be up in your face. When he comes in to an outline, reward with a 'give' of the rein, I'm not saying throw it away, its a small action which makes all the difference in the world.
 
#4 ·
This isn't the best pic, but gives you an idea, my hands are very gentle and only applying pressure when needed. reins are nice and loose and she is striding underneath of her self well. This would be considered a posting trot or extended trot. Hope that made since..do you have any questions lol?
 

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#6 ·
I think it's not a collection you worry about, but connection. :) For him to move round you first have to build all those muscles he needs to support himself. It takes time (quite a bit sometime) and correct riding. My best advice would be to take some lessons with the dressage trainer.
 
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#7 ·
The principles are the same western or english. You still need collection and connection. To build balance, strength, hindquarters and top line. Whether in a western or english saddle the horse should still be strided forward while also gently asking for collection from the face. This will make the horse have to pick up their forequarters in order to keep up the speed, and in turn producing muscles and balance.
 
#8 ·
But you don't ask for collection from the 'face' of the horse, or even connection. That's what makes a horse heavy on the fore, lean in to the hands of the rider and ignore aids from the bit.

To ask from collection, a correct half halt is required, at the right time, whilst the inside leg gives impulsion on the trunk, the rider uses its seat. Its not just about using your hands to bring your horse's nose to its chest, you have to collect an ENTIRE horse, not just the front end.
 
#9 ·
Duffy is right (not sure about western riding, but I'd guess it's also the entire horse, not just front).

And while this video was beat up to death on this forum I gonna post it anyway for the OP :D :
 
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#17 ·
I was wondering, what are some exercises I can do with him to gain strength in his hind end and make him push, instead of just rounding his neck and acting like he is?

(And while I'm at it, anyone know and tips for the days when his canter is extremely flat and so is his jump?)
The answer to both your questions is the same, and this thread has plenty of suggestions to get you going: http://www.horseforum.com/english-riding/horse-heavy-forehand-canter-107348/
 
#20 ·
To build the muscles necessary for self carriage...get out of arena, take horse out into fields, woods, or dirt road, and hack. Walk up every gentle slope you can find. Don't let him canter up, that's him cheating. In a few weeks time you will have a well built machine back there. You'll know he's got the proper muscles developed when he voluntarily walks down hills dead straight by sitting his back end rather than weaving back and forth. Warning...horse will be forward and having lots of fun. Rider too.
 
#23 ·
I was wondering, what are some exercises I can do with him to gain strength in his hind end and make him push, instead of just rounding his neck and acting like he is?
Wow folks, just read some of the posts. A wee bit judgemental, don't ya all think? Read the above sentence. She wants the horse to push from behind and not just round his neck...unless I completely forgot how to read, she understands collection. English, western, sidesaddle, she wants the horse to gain enough muscle to be able to retrain him to reach into the bit. Give her a break already. You'd think her OP said, "how can I get his head to look pretty?"
 
#26 ·
If you read the above posts, working the horse correctly will allow it to do so- building up the muscle over time. I don't see any judgement, I see information, a bit of debating.. digressing towards the end, but none the less, info to help with this sort of problem.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Folks, moderators DO have lives that we would like to lead. Speaking for myself only, I'm tired of trying to clean up messes that should never have been made in the first place.

I'm leaving the posts as an example of how NOT to post.

Let's focus the thread on exercises that will help a horse engage from the rear, and strengthen its hind & back. That is not an English vs Australian vs Western vs Dressage vs WP vs Jumping question. Few sports require near constant collection, but most want it available at times. How can you train & condition a horse to gather himself in preparation of XYZ?
 
#31 ·
I am wondering though. What comes first? Softness or collection/forwardness?
My take on it is, if you have no forward, there's nothing up front to "collect". If you have no softness, the horse is just going to brace against the bit and half halts will not go through. In the whole grand scheme of things, I don't think anything really comes first other than relaxation. You can't teach anything to a tense horse

I guess that's why I like the hacking in fields idea so much. It builds muscle very quickly, gives the horse's mind a rest, usually produces all kinds of forward, and the rider gets to experience a horse truly reaching into the bit rather trotting around a flat ring in endless circles trying to find the missing ingredient.
 
#33 ·
I don't compete in anything. If you saw me ride, you would understand why. :oops:

However, for me, riding is about building a relationship with my horses so that WE are trying to handle something TOGETHER. If I am thinking about going into a canter, I want my horse to feel it, gather himself, and then unwind. If we're doing a sharp turn at speed, I want him to pull back a little and power his way thru the turn with his rear because HE knows to do it.

So for me, softness and trust comes first. Then we have the basis to push things together. But I don't compete, so I don't know if that approach would work for anyone else. :wink:
 
#34 ·
But it shouldn't matter whether you compete or not.. I have only done one out of house show, and a couple in house but they were jumping. I am hoping to get out more next year... but competitions or not, the basics for horse riding, once you have your own basics sorted out (C'mon guys.. we all had that awkward riding trot phase ;D) is softness, suppleness and the connection with the horse no matter what discipline... it just appears there are different ways to do it...?

Regardless of competitions, we always learn with our horses, and should always want to learn :) Because some compete it doesn't make their riding any different, in the fundementals, to a happy hacker! Sure, you can add a few more fancy leg movements in etc, but w/t/c and transitions to and from are all about achieving the same thing..
 
#37 ·
There is 0 backwards motion of the hand in a half halt. There is a moment of suppling and a give - the give is the important part.
The legs are on to engage the hindlegs and the seat drives and stalls as needed.

Collection has very little to do with the speed of the horse and correct self carriage requires years to develop and although the horse is carrying himself - the connection is quite strong, but not hard.
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#38 ·
Thank you all SO much for your advice. I'm really using all this to my extent, but for me the only thing here that helped me with my main question, exercises to get more muscle in the hind end and get them to push instead of pull, was the hack :\

I think that was my fault though xD I wasn't clear enough in the earlier post.

The only thing I am a wee bit disappointed at was a comment in here stating that western was about beating into submission etc. I do hunter, eventing, and jumpers, but I also do western pleasure and team penning. I know MANY western riders who treat their horses better then a lot of my English team mates. This was a thread to ask about collection, not your view on what the other discipline is doing wrong. :|

Thank you all who commented. :3
 
#40 ·
I do not think Western riders have a monopoly on incorrect use of spurs or curb bits
Also, collection absolutley can be achieved with a curb bit. WAy back there, someone said it cannot but this cannot be so. Even in dressage, a double bridle is used in the higher levels, with part of that bridle being a curb bit.

The Californios cowboys are excellent riders who ride with collection and self carriage , in a curb bit.
 
#46 ·
Also, collection absolutely can be achieved with a curb bit. WAy back there, someone said it cannot but this cannot be so. Even in dressage, a double bridle is used in the higher levels, with part of that bridle being a curb bit.

The Californios cowboys are excellent riders who ride with collection and self carriage , in a curb bit.

The curb bit does not achieve collection...it may refine it but it has to be there in the first place.

That is why the curb/double bridle is not introduced before it is...because the collection would have already been worked on and achieved to some degree before the curb is introduced in the higher levels of dressage.

Even the Californian Cowboys with spade bits...did NOT START their horses in that bit but PROGRESSED to it with the spade as the last REFINEMENT on the horse.
 
#41 ·
I disagree somewhat - collection requires connection which cannot easily be achieved in a curb alone. The horse cannot be ducked behind the bit - he must come into it and be supple. This is very hard to achieve without a soft snaffle.
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#44 ·
From a western point of view, I agree with both tiny & Anebel. Collection in a curb is absolutely possible but they've generally learned it in a snaffle first.

I also agree with Spyder that the hindquarters need to be conditioned before collection can be expected. A horse without the proper muscle and conditioning cannot get hind legs working under itself properly.
 
#45 · (Edited)
We may be using different definitions but the same word - which causes confusion. I'm reading V.S. Littauer's "Common Sense Horsemanship". In one spot, he argues - correctly I think - that many of us who use the word 'collection' put an improper meaning to it.

"...you hear people say that they collect their horses before the jump or in a trappy situation in the hunting field...One in a thousand of those who use this word so easily, really collects his horse. The best of the rest merely refer to the ability of their horses to change their balance by gathering themselves, which is known as 'coming back' and which requires only a simple technique on the part of the rider....and you will have to argue hard to prove that it [collection] is necessary for cross-country riding and jumping." - page 203
Now arguably, if 999 out of 1000 use a word for one meaning, and only 1 in 1000 uses it correctly, then maybe the definition of the 1 is wrong.

However that may be, the OP was referring to jumping. And with my very limited horses and limited riding skill, it is a safe bet that I NEVER 'collect' my horse in the sense a good dressage rider would. That is why I used the term 'gather' earlier - that change of balance where the horse coils up, and gets ready to use his hind legs to power the anticipated change - acceleration, jump, sharp turn, etc.

I think it would take a very special person to collect a horse in the Olympic sense using a curb or training it without a bit - although a well trained horse could then PERFORM it without a bit.

Since the OP referred to jumping, and since I freely admit my limitations, I just wanted to clarify what I meant. I have never ridden a collected horse in the dressage sense of the word. I have ridden my horse where they gather themselves and get ready to use their hind end. That is the momentary 'collection' that I meant.

BTW - I may try to train myself to use the word 'gather' instead of 'collect'. One of my pet peeves is someone applying two different definitions to one word, and it makes sense to me to save 'collect' for the more Olympic-style, dressage collection.
 
#48 ·
True collection is a extremely cool feeling. Never mind about his head, neck, bit, blah, blah. I love the feeling where his back rounds up and his muscles at his sides meet my muscles at my calves. The rest just follows & the energy flows and I capture it in my hands and release it out, like liquid silk.
 
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