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Collection Vs. Headset

This is a discussion on Collection Vs. Headset within the English Riding forums, part of the Riding Horses category
  • Horse that doesn't respect bit

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    12-29-2011, 05:48 PM
  #11
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by paint_girl08    
asking for collection from the face. .
The western pleasure call their "collection" and do it from the front end but never should it be asked for this way.

Also you can never get collection from a curb bit.

True collection comes from the hind and your description of blocking the front and driving into unyielding hands ( your first post) is completely wrong as it usually results in a horse that becomes heavy in the front, heavy in the reins and many times learns to just rush around the arena.

I don't post in the western section as they have their own version of "collection" that I do not agree with so be prepared to get the same sort of response from the English riders that have any knowledge of what training practices are done in this discipline.
     
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    12-29-2011, 05:50 PM
  #12
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuffyDuck    
But you don't ask for collection from the 'face' of the horse, or even connection. That's what makes a horse heavy on the fore, lean in to the hands of the rider and ignore aids from the bit.

To ask from collection, a correct half halt is required, at the right time, whilst the inside leg gives impulsion on the trunk, the rider uses its seat. Its not just about using your hands to bring your horse's nose to its chest, you have to collect an ENTIRE horse, not just the front end.
I was trying to explain to use a half halt earlier, yes I know collection is the "ENTIRE" horse. But the horse must know and be able to give their head and respect the bit. That's what I was trying to say. I'm sorry if you took it as that's all you do. But it doesn't matter how many half halts or impulsion you get, if the horse doesn't respect the bit and give you their head all you will be doing is teaching the horse to strain against you and not round and be supple. Sorry if you misunderstood
     
    12-29-2011, 05:55 PM
  #13
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by paint_girl08    
I was trying to explain to use a half halt earlier, yes I know collection is the "ENTIRE" horse. But the horse must know and be able to give their head and respect the bit. That's what I was trying to say. I'm sorry if you took it as that's all you do. But it doesn't matter how many half halts or impulsion you get, if the horse doesn't respect the bit and give you their head all you will be doing is teaching the horse to strain against you and not round and be supple. Sorry if you misunderstood

The problem is, unless you tell people how to do the entire thing, they just go on and pull the mouth.. that's why I put my posts.

Respect for the bit comes with soft hands-soft hands, soft mouth. I don't want my horse to just 'give' its head either though, that means its working on a false outline, most of the time overbent. I have to work for it, walk, trot, canter. Half halts, seat and legs.

And it DOES matter how many half halts and impulsion you give- you should only have to give it once with a half halt, possible more if you're changing within the gait to do half pass, pirouttes, medium to collected.

You teach the horse to work from behind, and you will need hardly anything from the front, the respect comes pretty naturally and you'll have a horse more willing to work than one you're constantly fiddling with at the front.
     
    12-29-2011, 05:56 PM
  #14
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by paint_girl08    
I was trying to explain to use a half halt earlier, yes I know collection is the "ENTIRE" horse. But the horse must know and be able to give their head and respect the bit. That's what I was trying to say. I'm sorry if you took it as that's all you do. But it doesn't matter how many half halts or impulsion you get, if the horse doesn't respect the bit and give you their head all you will be doing is teaching the horse to strain against you and not round and be supple. Sorry if you misunderstood

The horse "comes to the bit AS A RESULT of the correct connection of the hind"......not the hind comes under/connected by respecting the bit.
     
    12-29-2011, 06:59 PM
  #15
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyder    
The horse "comes to the bit AS A RESULT of the correct connection of the hind"......not the hind comes under/connected by respecting the bit.
Western riders will never get it. To them it's all about beating the horse into submission with harsh bits and spurs. No thank you.

Plus they do not understand that collection can never be achieved by force (another word for "respect").

NOTE ADDED BY A MODERATOR: Please do not bother responding to this comment, as it has been addressed here: Collection Vs. Headset. Thanks to those who reported it.
     
    12-29-2011, 07:00 PM
  #16
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
Duffy is right (not sure about western riding, but I'd guess it's also the entire horse, not just front).

And while this video was beat up to death on this forum I going to post it anyway for the OP : Dressage Teacher Jane Savoie and The "Connecting Half Halt" - YouTube
Not really sure why that video has been beaten to death. It is fundamentally correct.
     
    12-29-2011, 07:03 PM
  #17
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovePandaPony    
I was wondering, what are some exercises I can do with him to gain strength in his hind end and make him push, instead of just rounding his neck and acting like he is?

(And while I'm at it, anyone know and tips for the days when his canter is extremely flat and so is his jump?)
The answer to both your questions is the same, and this thread has plenty of suggestions to get you going: Horse Heavy on Forehand at Canter
     
    12-29-2011, 07:25 PM
  #18
Green Broke
Quote:
Originally Posted by mildot    
Western riders will never get it. To them it's all about beating the horse into submission with harsh bits and spurs. No thank you.

Plus they do not understand that collection can never be achieved by force (another word for "respect").

-head desk-

And its comments like that which turn threads in to debating, digressing nightmares. Any chance you could word your comments some what more diplomatically so the entire thread doesn't poof?

Tia.
Wallaby likes this.
     
    12-29-2011, 07:36 PM
  #19
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitten_Val    
Duffy is right (not sure about western riding, but I'd guess it's also the entire horse, not just front).

And while this video was beat up to death on this forum I going to post it anyway for the OP : Dressage Teacher Jane Savoie and The "Connecting Half Halt" - YouTube
Thanks for posting that video Kitten, I know I've seen it before but I'm at the point in my riding where I understand it now and I will try to apply what she is saying tomorrow when I ride Bella My instructor doesn't really know much about dressage so I'm pretty much on my own when it comes to that kind of stuff.
     
    12-29-2011, 07:44 PM
  #20
Trained
To build the muscles necessary for self carriage...get out of arena, take horse out into fields, woods, or dirt road, and hack. Walk up every gentle slope you can find. Don't let him canter up, that's him cheating. In a few weeks time you will have a well built machine back there. You'll know he's got the proper muscles developed when he voluntarily walks down hills dead straight by sitting his back end rather than weaving back and forth. Warning...horse will be forward and having lots of fun. Rider too.
     

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collection, eventing, flatwork, hunter jumper

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