false frame vs. true frame (please share pictures!) - Page 4
 
 

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false frame vs. true frame (please share pictures!)

This is a discussion on false frame vs. true frame (please share pictures!) within the English Riding forums, part of the Riding Horses category

     
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        02-23-2009, 10:30 AM
      #31
    Trained
    Quote:
    I always always always look at the riders hands first. If the riders hands are incorrect, the horse will NEVER have a correct frame. If the riders hands are correct the horse MAY have a correct frame. If the rider has correct hands and is riding effectively the horse SHOULD have a correct frame.
    I agree, and I disagree.

    Yes the rider needs to have proper hand carraige. But that ties into the elbows, and the shoulders.

    If the hands are carried, but the elbows are stiff and the shoulders are roached...then that effects the horse.

    Then you have to look at the lower back, it is roached? Is it hollow? If either..that effects the riders core, and that effects the riders seat.

    Then there is the seat - if the seat is not centered *on all 3 points* then that effects the horse as well. If the rider is on their crotch, now their weight is on their horses forehand. If they are on their seat bones, they are now riding with too heavy of a seat.

    Legs - what are the riders legs doing?

    There is so much at play for proper and true collection.



    Here is an excellant article for anyone intersted to read. I have this permenantly bookmarked in my browser.

    ::: Sustainable Dressage - Collection & Its Evasions - True Collection - What It Is and How to Achieve It :::

    Quote:

    Don't be. Eventer dressage people often don't see the same as a pure dressage person and you can get confused when one of each looks at the same picture and sees things in a different light.
    I don't understand what you mean here?

    It isn't whether you do dressage as an Eventer, or USDF, or as a Hunter/Jumper or a Barrel Racer or GP Jumper - dressage is dressage.

    It isn't what sport you are doing, it is who is teaching you how to do it. That is the key. It is what you are being taught and how you are being taught accordingly.

    I have seen "pure" dressage people riding front to back and on the forehand using gadgets to get some false outcome. I see "pure" dressage people riding around on the forehand with their horses heads up high and backs dropped, fidgeting with their horses faces to get some false headset.

    Dressage is the biggest phase in eventing. If you do not do well in that phase, you have to work that much harder in the other 2 phases to get ahead of the game.

    The tests are judged by "pure" dressage judges.

    I see flat work being done incorrectly all the time, because riders are under uneducated coaches - regardless of their discipline. I see flat work being done correctly because they are under educated coaches, regardless of their discipline.
         
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        02-23-2009, 08:37 PM
      #32
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MIEventer    
    The tests are judged by "pure" dressage judges.

    I see flat work being done incorrectly all the time, because riders are under uneducated coaches - regardless of their discipline. I see flat work being done correctly because they are under educated coaches, regardless of their discipline.
    I stand by my statement.

    And yes many times the dressage phase is judged by a carded dressage judge as I have judged both events and dresssage tests.

    My statement has nothing to do whether there are "dressage" people riding incorrectly or not. I see errors/disagreements in training from both disciplines and I have learned through a lot of experience to not be so judgemental with only one view in mind. I pointed this out in post 10 on this thread about being set in one view.

    French or German...two different approaches but interesting that by the time the horse is about 3/4 level they are indistinguishable.
         
        02-23-2009, 08:58 PM
      #33
    Trained
    Intersting, I never knew that about the two different styles. What are they?
         
        02-23-2009, 09:23 PM
      #34
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MIEventer    
    Intersting, I never knew that about the two different styles. What are they?
    There are reams about the Frence style. Pretty much thought of as the CadreNoir



    Very much based on the Iberian and SRS horses training with lightness and flexibility first being the emphsis (maybe a bit overdone) vs the german method which is more based on power through the hind end ( more what is done now but again can be overdone).

    In coarse words do we run the horse forward until it finds its balance and head position or do we get the head position by flex work and drive the horse into a relaxed head position more slowly.

    BOTH methods work.
         
        02-24-2009, 01:22 AM
      #35
    Started
    drool!!!
         
        02-24-2009, 02:45 PM
      #36
    Trained
    ..O_O Wow. That jumping is amazing.
         
        02-24-2009, 03:40 PM
      #37
    Foal
    What an amazing thread!

    My holsteiner is German born, bred and trained, and it took us going to a dressage clinic held by a grand prix dressage rider who rode german trained horses to fill in the gaps in our education! There were alot of times when he didn't know what I was asking and I didn't know how to ask properly!

    Lui is very obliging and will do his utmost to figure out what you want. He was (and still is at times) very good at offering a false outline because he thinks simply bringing his nose in is what I'm asking. I've since bought a german dressage book and worked through their schooling and warming up exercises, and the difference in feel is just amazing!

    This is Lui - being ridden by my instructor - trying to please - putting his nose in his chest but the rest of him trialing a mile behind


    In this one, you can see he's tracking up much better and bringing his back legs further underneath him.


    Riding Lui has taught me that to ride in a true 'frame' you should forget about the position of the head and work on the whole body.
         
        02-24-2009, 03:45 PM
      #38
    Trained
    Ooh. See, in that picture I can DEFINITELY see the difference...
         
        02-24-2009, 05:44 PM
      #39
    Trained
    Quote:
    Very much based on the Iberian and SRS horses training with lightness and flexibility first being the emphsis (maybe a bit overdone) vs the german method which is more based on power through the hind end ( more what is done now but again can be overdone).

    In coarse words do we run the horse forward until it finds its balance and head position or do we get the head position by flex work and drive the horse into a relaxed head position more slowly.

    BOTH methods work.
    Great examples, and I had no idea there were two different styles.

    I attended a clinic hosted/taught by *excuse spelling* Beirtre Herbiert Siebrel..?? From the SRS and he was phenominal and a wealth of knowledge.

    He taught allot of driving from back end, obtaining balance and impulsion and lifting into the bridle.

    Sometimes it was hard to understand him because he would speak in his foreign language - especially when he got angry - and leaving it up to his interpreter.

    But he taught me allot about allowing my horse to learn to carry himself through the outside rein.

    ~~

    For my TB - the German style is what works.

    I went around for a year with him, under a coach who taught me to supple thorugh the outside rein and fidget with his face to get this false headset - and it wasn't working.

    He would drop his back, he wouldn't track up, he would carry it for just a moment and then throw his head and nose up/out.

    Wasn't working.

    It took getting under a new coach, and clinicing under Sarah Huges *Prix Saint George Competator and Beitre of the SPS to finally understand that it comes from the back end, driving forward and up and into my hands.

    Leaving his face alone, allowing him to open up and come under himself is what works for us.

    I've seen the difference it made in my boy - and I am a believer.

    But what may work for him, may not for others.
         
        02-28-2009, 10:41 AM
      #40
    Weanling
    I just wanted to throw my quick $0.02 in here. This is a great thread I rode very briefly last night after work as the daylight and my tolerance to cold would allow, and I wanted to note what a HUGE difference carrying your hands makes.

    My disclaimer is that I have no idea what Blaze and I looked like, I'm only going off of what I felt. I am working on overcoming years of shoddy and improper riding instruction. I've never learned how one's body should align and why the parts of our body need to move with the horse to function as a supple, communicative rider. I still have a LOT of work ahead of me. That said, simply picking up and carrying my hands (they used to be too low and hanging on horses' faces or elbows locked at sides) made B feel like he was a lot more rounded and relaxed under me, and I felt like I wasn't off kilter while riding, as I've felt so many times in the past.
         

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