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How can I keep the ride enjoyable for my daughter?

4K views 25 replies 13 participants last post by  MrsRobinson 
#1 ·
Hi. My name is Nikki, I'm new to the Forum. We own our first horse, Matty - a 12 yr old 14'2 standard bred, who is ridden by my nine year old daughter in a cross under (DR Cook style) bridle and treeless saddle. Mikayla has been riding since she was four, 2.5 of those years at a formal school. She now rides almost daily and has a lesson once a week with the local Pony Club. She can walk/trot/canter and jump small rails when riding a quiet school pony but is too nervous on the bigger Matty.

We bought Matty before Christmas and decided to keep him bitless and treeless as that was what he has been schooled in, and a good place to start for buying new gear. Philosophically, I agree with the more natural style and my daughter is dead set on it and doesn't want to change. I bought a bit last week.

Matty is a real sweetheart, but he is headstrong, stubborn and appears lazy (but I know what he is capable of!). He just will not listen to Mikayla and today simply walked through the low arena railing and headed toward the car (signaling he was finished for the day). Of course, she wouldn't allow it, and we continued working him, but she is getting nervous as she has very little control. The French link snaffle doesn't seem to have much effect, either, but I don't want a harsher bit as he is already shaking his head with that one.

We can keep working him, I can have him on the lunge, I can get extra lessons, but it comes down to the fact that rides are not fun. I am trying not to stress. He is a new horse and they both need some time to work out the chain of command, but I keep second guessing my choices and I find I get really wound up at Pony Club nights. What can I do to keep this light hearted and fun for her, while teaching her how to get his respect?
 
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#2 ·
First off, welcome to the forum! :)

My first thought when you mentioned about his head shaking, is that I wonder if he's had his teeth done recently? Getting the teeth done yearly (some horses need it done more often, others less) is something that is often overlooked by horse owners but it's imperative for the horse to be comfortable with a bit in his/her mouth.
If he's had his teeth done recently/had them checked by a vet, then I wonder if your daughter is giving him the signals he's used to. I know my mare (who I use for lessons for kids ages 6-14) will just ignore her rider (and sometimes starts shaking her head all over) until they get the cue right. She's just confused about what they're asking and she's trying her hardest to tell them to fix something! Then, once they figure out the correct cues (with my help) suddenly she's very willing.

Another thing is that a cross-under style bitless bridle uses VERY different pressure points than a bit. So, if his previous owner only rode him in a cross-under, he may be confused and frustrated about what the bit means since he may have never/only briefly experienced a bit before.
Does he do the same thing bitless? If not, he may just be more comfortable bitless (some horses are) so it might be in your best interest to keep him in the bitless bridle until you two know him better.
Have you had his mouth checked by a vet for deformities/issues that may be exacerbated by a bit?
My mare is gray and therefore has melanomas. Some of her melanomas are inside her mouth and cause her to be completely unable to carry a bit comfortably. I had no idea (there are no external indicators of these melanomas, you have to know what to look for) until one day I just decided to ride her bitless and it was like a magical fix, suddenly her behavior issues were mostly gone... So it could be a similar thing with your guy...

I'm just throwing a bunch of ideas out there, hopefully one will apply and be helpful in your situation! :)
Good luck!
 
#3 ·
Thanks Wallaby :)
I did wonder about his teeth and will be getting them checked. He was only with his previous owners for about a year and has been bitted before. He accepts it with no issues, but chews a lot.
He was trained using a rope halter and sidepull style bridle, but my daughter had no joy there, so the cross under was far more successful. I think, though, that there has been too much conflicting advice from other riders using bits, and her reins have been too tight, and so not giving the right signal. He does need a strong leader (and by that I mean in personality, not force) to help him as he gets confused easily.
I can see that a major part of the problem is me - I get too uptight, and frustrated, and then we all get wound up and the pressure literally builds!
 
#5 ·
Netty - no, it's a response to the bit in his mouth as that's the only time he does it. He does these silly things where he huffs and puffs about doing something and we have to have a little argument, then he gives in and does what's been asked of him, however reluctantly. I figured shaking his head is just another tantrum, but I will get his teeth checked to be sure there's no discomfort.
The rest of the time, he simply ploughs on regardless of what he is being asked to do, which direction she is trying to go.

I've been up since 5am trying to think of things I can do with the two of them.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Has your daughter had any lessons using Matty? I know you said she's had lessons on school ponies. Some lessons with him could help your daughter learn how to work with him and sort out what bit to use. You don't necessarily need a "harsher" bit, he may prefer a different type of snaffle. I have one horse in a french link eggbutt and another in a D ring happy mouth snaffle, my trainer tried snaffles until we found which one each preferred.

Changing to a new horse can be scary, my 7yr old moved to a new pony and although she could walk/trot/canter and was going over ground poles with the last one, she's had several lunge lessons on the new one and just cantered him this week for the first time. New pony, bigger pony and a much more forward, energetic pony, so in some ways it's like learning to ride all over again for her.

I had a few lunge line lessons when I bought my current horse. Sometimes just having someone on the ground to tell you that *yes, you CAN do this* makes a world of difference and sometimes that needs to be someone that isn't "Mom". My kiddo and I have a great relationship but having someone that isn't "Mom" tell her something goes over way better sometimes.
 
#7 ·
I would suggest getting her and Matty embarked on a course of ground work, and/or clicker training to bring back fun and small, measureble successes.
She would learn how to back him, move him one step right, one step left, teach him to bow, I dunno. If she is overwhelmed in the saddle, working on the ground with him may give her more sense of fun and or control. Especially if he's fundamentally a nice, lazy guy.
She could put together a 'show" for you, with some tricks.
Put them in a really small paddock or round pen for their riding and get her on the lunge line, bareback and go really slow.
Let her desing and create a horse and human costume for the "show".

Stuff like that to bring in some sillyness. She's only nine! Heck, she's a baby practically.
 
#8 ·
Delfina - She has has a few group lessons with the Pony Club, but nothing I would consider worth while. What she really does need, and I'm trying to organise for her, is a few individual lessons with someone who understands bitless riding. Pony Club advice has encouraged tighter reins and the result has not worked, but now we're all confused!

It will take time and in the mean time, I need to make sure she doesn't loose her love for the sport. I feel we made a bad choice in the pony, but we love him to bits and don't want to get rid of him, so we kind of need to make it work and find solutions. It's tough on her though.

Thanks for all the advice. Some good things to think about and we'll continue with the lunging, and start some more fun ground work stuff. I need to chill! :lol:
 
#12 ·
1. What she really does need, and I'm trying to organise for her, is a few individual lessons with someone who understands bitless riding. 2. Pony Club advice has encouraged tighter reins and the result has not worked, but now we're all confused!

3. we'll continue with the lunging, and start some more fun ground work stuff. I need to chill! :lol:
1. You got it!
2. Wrong advice, as you know from experience. Your PC branch is confused, not you!
3. Your horse won't be more respectful of you when you're astride than he is with you on the ground. You could tell daughter this, to motivate her to gain the respect on the ground first. :-p
 
#9 ·
Dont dispair!!

like your finding tighter reins, bigger bits, probably not the answer. Keep him bitles if thats what hes used to.

i give lessons to kids, and am the local Ponyclub head instructor. Make it more fun and get the horse under control by teaching them both games to get the horse listening.

setting up simple cones for weaving, poles on the ground that she need to walk throu, key holes to practice stopping and turning.

always start the ride by getting your daughter to go a step or to then ask the horse to stop. reinforce the stop if you need to. Then get her to count 3-4 steps then stop. then a few more. Get the horse paying attention to her from the very start of the ride, if you make it a counting game for her it makes it less work like. Alway ensure the horse gets a reward every time he responds to rein pressure, by giving him a slight release of rein before asking him to go again.

then carry on to weaving etc to help develop steering

hope this helps
 
#10 ·
If he has not had his teeth done then I would start there. I know I would shake my head if I had sharps like horses can get.

The reason there are lots of different bits in the world is that one bit does not always work for every horse. Not every horse has the same shape mouth, etc. Maybe he simply does not like a french link snaffle. Maybe he does not like whatever material the bit you bought is made out of. Maybe your bit does not fit properly.

You said the horse did not listen to your daughter with the bit, does the horse listen with the bitless bridle in the same situation?


I agree, lessons with a trainer on this horse might help your daughter. Or maybe this horse is simply not the right horse for your daughter.
 
#11 ·
Wi;d Horses - thanks for that. I think I know that getting a bit is not going to solve the problem - the problem isn't his mouth it's the communication and respect between them. Thank you for the game ideas, too. Sometimes when I'm so focussed on something, I forget to think of different things and so we've been in a bit of a rut. I've been watching the things they do at rallies too, to get some ideas. But the weather has been awful, so we have to wait. Sometimes a bit of a break is good, though :)

Alwaysbehind -He definitely either doesn't like the bit, or needs to get used to it again, but he doesn't make a big deal of it. Still waiting for the dentist.
He is as responsive with a bit as he is without. When we bought him, he had been ridden in a rope halter/hackamore with leadrope, but we just could not get him to listen and I was concerned about her safety, so bought the Dr. Cook style cross under bridle, which he seems perfectly fine in, until he's had enough of the ride and heads on home. Then there's little she can do about it! I wouldn't say it's dangerous, as he just walks, but it certainly takes the fun out of it when all we are doing is fighting with him.
 
#13 ·
Yippee! I have a riding lesson set up with the instructor that works with the horses where we bought our pony. She teaches both with and without a bit, so understands all the little issues we are having difficulty with.

My daughter has been excited about the idea of playing more games and doing more groundwork to improve the communication between the two of them. Unfortunately, the weather has been lousy, so we have had to wait. Out this afternoon though, so fingers crossed he's not fresh and full of beans with all the new grass!

Thanks again for all the positive feedback and support. I'm always open to new ideas :)
 
#16 ·
UPDATE...
After all the wonderful and supportive advice, I thought I'd update our tale, and perhaps there's more you can help me with. I spent the whole night thinking about this. Again. Lol :)

I have a dentist booked, but not for another week yet, so still waiting to find out about Matty's teeth.
We swapped the bit for a 1/2 inch smaller, and it's much better. No head throwing in the couple times he had it in. Also have a new bridle with noseband and flash, but I haven't used the flash yet (there's a story to that, but maybe not now...)

My daughter rode him in a dressage test on weds, and it was hideous! Well, I say that because we had no idea where in the test she was as he was all over the show, weaving, stopping, starting. Lol. But as a Mikayla/Matty ride it was brilliant because he was trying all these evasive strategies with her so he didn't have to listen, and, with the back up of a grass reign, she wouldn't have a bar of it and pushed him through. I was so proud of her. I could see steam coming out her ears though!

So yesterday being Thursday, we had jacked up a lesson. The instructor is a natural horsemanship trainer, not pony club. That made a huge difference. She prefers horses being bitless, but in this case she said he needs a bit.
Here's what I saw: The best ride ever. Over an hour, and Mikayla had Matty walking, circling, one-reign stops and trotting on a straight line. It was hard work, but she learnt so much and found some easy solutions to her hassles (not to say they are now fixed, it's just that we know how to work on them over the long haul).
Here's what the instructor said: Being a standard bred, he possibly has not been restarted properly. She said he is numb to certain aids, and hasn't learnt them properly yet. In her opinion, Mikayla could maybe get him going nicely, but it will take a long time, and it might be so hard for her that she gives up.

So we have some options. 1.) Sell him or return him to where he came
2.) keep plodding on with lessons
3.) send him away to be restarted and then see how he is when he returns and then revisit options 1 & 2

I think it would be easy if he wasn't so full of character and we hadn't gotten so attached to him! I'll be on the phone a bit today, I think.
 
#17 ·
That is so good that she had Matty working so well after just 1 hour!!

Good luck and I hope it goes well with whatever you chose to do. :D
 
#18 ·
I agree with TinyLiny about the ground work. I often take my sister (10 yo) with me because she just loves horses, she also has lessons in a pony-club each week. She began by only helping me groom Nello, give me the right tools and so on. She rode him for photos, not moving. Then she saw me grondwork, was my "cameragirl" and asked questions. Then she began to try herself... In the arena first, trying to ask simple things that he likes. Then more difficult things. Then she was the one to take him from the stable to the arena, then to the pasture (there's a road to cross!)... She took him for walks around the town on foot, I became the cameragirl lol. And she rides him quite often while I hold him, in the countryside or in town, just trying to improve her seat. Then one day I set a "game" with cones and so on and she had to decide where to go, walk him, stop him, turn, step backwards, have him yield to the reins and bring his nose to her foot...


She found the stuff on horseback was harder, but groundwork is just fun for her, and this way she gradually becomes a leader for him so that he does not really disobey her when ridden. She just enjoys it and comes once a week with me (not more because when she's there we can't go for long long walks outside with trots ans canters...). And she's always happy to do so. I try to keep it a game for her, not forcing anything on them, just letting her do what she feels like. Sometimes I interven because she asks things in a "blurred" way and Nello does nothing good, but we try to just keep smiling and breathing calmly...
 
#19 ·
The ground work has definitly been fantastic, and just taking time out to do fun things like giving him a wash has been great. Unfortunately, given the new feedback, that's just not going to cut it. He clearly has a lot to learn and now I'm faced with the prospect of sending him back after all that work. I need to decide if he has the potential to learn to be what we thought he was when we bought him. If that makes any sense? Irresponsible animal trading (with any animal, not just horses) really hacks me off! I feel like I've been taken advantage of due to my ignorance when the dealer should have bloody known better. End of rant.
 
#20 ·
Of course groundwork isn't enough... But maybe you can find some good trainer who can try and find out his temper, and whether he is likely to become a safe partner for you and your daughter. If not, you will probably, anyway, know more baout him so you'll be able to find a new owner who will be able to help him improve himself... Don't you think?
 
#21 ·
Yes, I agree. That's pretty much where we are at. Would hate to part with him now, but it's a matter of ability. It is becoming more and more clear that he may not have the ability to go through the levels with my daughter, but I would rather have him restarted, and schooled properly, than just give up on him. I don't know.
 
#22 ·
Wow, do you have a tough decision. It seems like it might be a quit while you're ahead scenario. There's always the danger that if you send him away for retraining he will still not respect your daughter when he comes back. And you are afraid he can't go up the levels with her, which means you'll probably be selling him in the future anyway. Perhaps it's better to sell now and start over with a better match.

I will say though, that it took a full year for me to fully understand and appreciate my horse and be able to canter correctly on him. He was a better horse than my riding level at first, and so it was a hard year. I had to soften my hands. I also found out that the French link snaffle, which I thought was as kind as I could get, was driving him crazy. Went to a rubber snaffle and he was so much happier. Now I can ride him in a big fat eggbutt snaffle and that is OK with him, but only becuase I've been learning a lot. I was definitely ready to give up with this horse, but I am happy that I did not. I did the ground work, earned his respect, fixed the tack, changed his supplements, and ultimately am in love with my horse. But I am an adult and was commited to doing all that.

If you want her to really have fun, and not be frustrated and anxious, it's probably better to get an older well schooled horse (or pony) and just enjoy him/her and learn the basics.

The other thing to consider is that unless you can bring pony and kid to your new trainer weekly, your daughter may learn a lot of bad habits trying to control this pony, which she will then eventually have to unlearn.

Good luck. Tough decision.
 
#23 · (Edited)
After reading through this, I'm not surprised at the advice you got from the trainer, because I too was thinking that it sounds like for all intents and purposes the horse isn't broke. By that I mean that he doesn't know what basic aids are and to the extent that he may know them, he doesn't know he needs to listen unless he wants to.

Believe it or not, this isn't difficult to fix, but it won’t happen overnight. Basically, your daughter (with the help of a good trainer) needs to install the breaks, the power steering and the clutch. The horse needs to learn what a direct rein means, indirect rein, leg pressure (go vs laterals, etc). It sounds like that lesson she had was a good start!

If he is clever and Mattie is diligent and doesn’t get impatient or rush you’ll start to see results in a matter of weeks. Does that mean you’ll have a made pony at that point – no – but you should at least have basic (direct rein and leg) steering, a whoa, a working half-halt and the fundamentals of light contact in a training level frame a at a walk. From there, you can start to add some laterals as a way of teach in indirect, inside leg/outside rein, light contact at a trot and a stretch at the walk. The training will progress from there, probably at a pretty fast rate, once the horse has figured out the basics. You can probably be where she wants to be in a matter of 3-6 months. It’s amazing what having a common language can do to aid in the training of a horse. J

Mattie will need an instructor to help her with this, but if she is interested and willing, she’ll finish by having a great bond with a horse that she made herself and she’ll be able to do this with any horse she gets moving forward. If she doesn’t want to do it, you can send it for retraining, but Mattie will still have to learn all the cues the trainer teaches the horse, so don’t expect a fast fix. Unless all Mattie wants is a made pony she can play around with, or the pony has shown signs that it is dangerous, getting rid of the pony would seem unnecessary, especially if, as you say, you both love the pony. Far better to put time and effort into training - then at the very least, if the pony doesn’t work out long term, you can sell it for a decent price and buy something more in line with what Mattie wants – and hopefully this time, with the help of a trainer who can point you in a better direction.

P.S. I just realized that Mattie is 9 when I was thinking she was about 12 or so! That could make a big difference both in ability and patience! In that case, you might need a trainer to do this for you or have someone who can give your daughter a lesson, then supplement with one or two training rides a week if you don't want to send the horse off for training.
 
#24 ·
As for bits, once the teeth are done, I agree you should play around with different snaffles. My boy hates egg butts and hunter dees, but loves his western dee. Even the mouth material can make a difference. I tried a hunter dee that was sweet iron with copper inlay and he hated it, but the one that is just sweet iron he loves. And of course, I can't find another like it to save my life, so my trainer may never get her bit back . Bleh!! :p
 
#25 ·
Interesting situtation, & thoughtful posts. I vote to get the kid something more "made", because she's only 9 years old, unless your kid is super mature, super passionate about training her own horse already, & believes that no other horse can replace this one in her heart. I'd ask her these questions, for big help with your final decision.

Wonderful that you got the lowdown plus a very fruitful lesson from a nhs trainer!

I'm sure that if you decide to sell him, that you'll find the best forever home for him; as you've said that you hate horses being turned over like used cars, so we can all feel good should you decide to let him go.

Let us know what you decide!
 
#26 ·
Thanks again to everyone for their wonderful advice and insight. Boy am I on learning curve this month! It's been great, though, because I had really hit rock bottom, thinking we had a lemon and it was all going to be a disaster. After last night's ride, I'm starting to see what PoohLP was talking about. Both horse (Mattie, 12yrs ;) ) and rider (Mikayla, 9) communicated brilliantly. He did try his usual evasive tactics, but she sat her bum in the saddle and held him in place, and he gave up very soon and didn't try again all evening.
The others were doing a jumping competition, but she decided to just work him in the warm up ring as he refuses jumps. We had some NHS guidance from another rider and she learnt how to give him a command, rather than make a request - BIIIIG difference :)
Results:
* no inappropriate grazing or evading direction - one reign stops and insistent pressure worked brilliantly
* Mikayla kept a soft, quiet reign and a firm leg with no kicking
* walking quietly over a teeny jump without even looking at it (our friend had him popping over a bigger one nicely, too, just to get him going)
* trotting around without heading for 'homebase' at the car - even trotting toward the car, turning at the trot and going back the other way without a fuss! wahoo!

Northern - your questions about love and commitment to training have been at the center of all my dilemmas with this pony and we talk about where we are at with each step, be it forward or backward. She is only nine, but she's more than that in many ways and has what it takes to stick with it, but only if she wants it. Last night pretty much sealed it for her. If she can get him moving forward like that, then each ride is an improvement and she has more and more confidence that she can lead him through these issues. Of course she just loves him so much more after each successful ride, that the more success we have, the harder it will be to part them. Not a bad thing, but it's a commitment for the long haul, I realise that.

Oh, and she had misplaced her new bridle last night, so she rode in the bitless!

We have contacted the dealers and let them know our issues. I am hoping they will step up and take him back for some more schooling, since I wasn't given his full history in racing and restarting when I asked. But my husband is taking care of all that.
 
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