My beef with dressage - Page 5
 
 

       The Horse Forum > Riding Horses > English Riding

My beef with dressage

This is a discussion on My beef with dressage within the English Riding forums, part of the Riding Horses category

     
    LinkBack Thread Tools
        01-14-2009, 09:38 PM
      #41
    Started
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ponyboy    
    Yes, every discipline has its issues. The problem is not many people are talking about the issues in dressage, and dressage has always billed itself as being a gentle discipline. Jumping is about clearing fences... Jumpers don't claim it's anything more special than that. That's not the case with dressage.
    There is quite a bit of talk about the abusive training methods in dressage...just check out the information in the video I just posted.....

    Quote:
    Somebody mentioned natural ability in relation to willingness. I totally agree that temperament counts for a lot. Jumpers have a history of not bothering to breed for temperament and I think that's a shame.
    I beg to differ. ANY good breeder regardless of discipline will ALWAYS take into consideration temperament as well as breeding.
         
    Sponsored Links
    Advertisement
     
        01-15-2009, 02:41 PM
      #42
    Foal
    Loads of people are talking about the issues of Dressage. We all trying to stop it. Just because you saw the truth doesn't mean every single rider does it. Honestly, don't think dressageriders are bad. Jumpingriders are as worse!(International ones, especially german!). Because some people 'think' it is happening, doesn't mean it actually 'is' happening. They might of changed their minds. Believe me, not all of the dressageriders are force into position. It maybe their trainers fault. Not the rider self. Trainers teach us to do stuff, we do it, it happens. Some trainers just want you to get high and start showing you methodes you've never heard of before. Some of them don't explain that it hurts. I think it's more of the trainers fault.

    But please, don't think dressage is all wrong when it really isn't. In Holland it's populair, but you don't get awarded for pulling once in your horses mouth.
         
        01-15-2009, 03:08 PM
      #43
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ponyboy    
    I used to be really into dressage as a kid. It was what I wanted to do when I grew up. But then I grew up, and realized things had changed.

    Yes, dressage is the hardest thing to do on a horse. Yes, dressage horses are the most balanced in the way they move. The problem is, the horse doesn't know either of those things. All they know is that they are being made to spend a lot of energy doing things they don't normally do and probably can't understand the purpose of.

    Now I don't think any of that means we shouldn't do dressage. But it does mean we have to be very careful and patient with the training - and that used to be exactly what dressage was about. But now because of competitive pressures, that ethic is eroding. If dressage riders (as a whole) still really had their horses' best interests at heart, could Rollkur have gotten as far as it has? Would we be hearing about trainers using hot wire to teach piaffe?

    Now those of you who are dressage riders might be saying "well I don't use either of those methods," and that's fair enough. I am just pointing out that competitive pressures have a way of pushing back the boundaries of what is considered good training or even humane. When you're asking as much of your horse as you do in dressage, that's a real concern.
    I agree with the above. Dressage originated as a way to show off horses that were trained for combat. It was done by military personnel and their cavalry horses. Over the past two centuries, Dressage has devolved into just another equestrian "sport" that many do whatever it takes to win. Very sad indeed.

    I cringe every time I see Anky or Werth just about get bounced out of their saddles at an extended trot, or their hands bouncing 2-3" or more out of place during a sitting trot. It's disgusting.

    Quote:
    The horses that have been doing dressage the longest, and thus the ones that do it the most naturally, are andalusians and their close relatives (of which the lipizzanner is one). Warmbloods only became popular for dressage because competitive dressage started in Germany where warmbloods are common. The most popular choice isn't always the best. Not that I hate warmbloods, but this is important for two reasons: 1) When you pick the horse with the most natural talent, you can use gentler training methods and equipment and 2) the longer a horse has been bred to do a certain thing, the happier they will be doing it.
    Warmbloods became popular because of their "flashy" front end movement. That foot flicking at the extended trot is actually a sign of tension in the neck and/or shoulders! It really should be PENALIZED, but unfortunately judges seem to like it... Same for the dragging hind feet but high stepping front at Passage and Piaffe. Again, that should be penalized as the rull book says the front AND hinds should maintain the SAME elevation, but the judges don't seem to notice...

    Quote:
    There seems to be an attitude among riders (and it can be a problem in all disciplines) that tackling hard cases - horses that don't do what we want them to do very easily, either because of talent or temperament - makes one a better rider and is something to be proud of. But our horses would be much happier if we took the path of least resistance and did with them what they do most naturally.
    EXACTLY! There are so few horses out there that are REALLY good at Dressage past 1st level... Yet we see many pros and amateurs alike forcing horses to do medium and upper levels tests. You can see it in the horse that he/she is having a very hard time, yet the horse still gets high enough scores to continue.

    And the scores are another thing... WHEN did someone decide that a 70% was a winning upper level score??? 70% is barely above average. 60-65% is a winning score in lower level, and IMO, that is retched. Did your mom ever give you a cookie for a D on an exam??

    Bleh!

    Quote:
    The bottom line really is that dressage was not meant to be a competitive sport, and it's being ruined because of it. ALL disciplines have the potential to be inhumane if the people doing them get caught up in competition. I fear that dressage riders are losing sight of what the discipline is really supposed to be about, yet because of the noble reputation dressage has many of them don't think twice about whether what they're doing is really good for their horses.
    The problem is the judges. If we could get judges in the sport that were NOT ALLOWED to show, train, or breed Dressage horses while they are judging or 3-5 years previous to judging, then we would have more objective scoring. As it is, there are no restrictions on who can be a judge, besides taking a test. I am not even sure there are written restrictions on judging your own students! (I could be wrong on that of course, but I don't remember reading anything like that when reviewing USDF and FEI judging regulations a couple years back).

    So, you get this "club" of judges, trainers, and riders who decide what "trends" will win this year at the upper levels. It's just ridiculous. Even the president of the FEI sees the corruption in the Dressage community. Read what she has to say: http://www.kouluratsastus.net/FEInkirje.pdf
         
        01-15-2009, 04:55 PM
      #44
    Yearling
    I've been reading bits of this thread out of curiosity, but I'm unable to comment much due to lack of experience.

    However, don't be so quick to apply American grades to dressage ones ;) At a UK university, 70% = super duper, you've got top grades! XD
         
        01-15-2009, 05:07 PM
      #45
    Super Moderator
    Excellent point claireauriga! I for one, did not know they scored differently over seas...

    On a funny note... my first dressage test was the highest score (like an 80 I think). I was on a 20 year old appy and knew nothing about bending but I remember how excited I was to see my score because I thought for sure... highest score was 1st place! Little did I know... I was last... :(
         
        01-15-2009, 06:37 PM
      #46
    Yearling
    Yup, I'm now in the frame of mind that 40% = pass, 50% = okay, 60% = you're doing well and we are very happy with you, 70% = excellent, and 80% = no one ever gets this, ever xD
         
        01-15-2009, 07:02 PM
      #47
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by claireauriga    
    Yup, I'm now in the frame of mind that 40% = pass, 50% = okay, 60% = you're doing well and we are very happy with you, 70% = excellent, and 80% = no one ever gets this, ever xD
    40 % is insufficient
    50 % is satisfactory for the level
    60 % is sufficient
    70 % is good
    80 % is very good
    90 % is excellent

    Scores of 80% or higher do exist. If you can't get at least 50% then you need to go back to the drawing board
         
        01-15-2009, 07:13 PM
      #48
    Yearling
    Thank you for that, Spyder :) It's always important to consider marks, scores or grades in the context of the distribution with which they are awarded.
         
        01-15-2009, 07:18 PM
      #49
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Spyder    
    40 % is insufficient
    50 % is satisfactory for the level
    60 % is sufficient
    70 % is good
    80 % is very good
    90 % is excellent

    Scores of 80% or higher do exist. If you can't get at least 50% then you need to go back to the drawing board
    Exactly! Shouldn't a horse need at least an 80% before being "good enough" to move on to the next level? I mean, at least in open/pro divisions. I can understand if us mere mortals (amateurs) should find 60% something to cheer about, but professionals, especially those at FEI levels, should be expected to be "very good" if not "excellent". You only hear of certain movements that they are able to score 8s and 9s on, but the overall score is still usually in the 70s for the very best riders/horses.
         
        01-15-2009, 07:33 PM
      #50
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by luvs2ride1979    
    Exactly! Shouldn't a horse need at least an 80% before being "good enough" to move on to the next level? I mean, at least in open/pro divisions. I can understand if us mere mortals (amateurs) should find 60% something to cheer about, but professionals, especially those at FEI levels, should be expected to be "very good" if not "excellent". You only hear of certain movements that they are able to score 8s and 9s on, but the overall score is still usually in the 70s for the very best riders/horses.

    I believe the USEF has reversed its decision regarding qualifications to move up and Canada never had set scores or placings required.

    As far as when you move up, well it is your decision. It depends on tha score and reason why the horse is doing well or not so well at one level.

    A perfect example of a horse getting a low score 50-55 % on average and being moved up anyways and getting better scores is a horse I knew some time back. This was a very big long backed horse that was riding the first level in the small arena.

    The following year they moved it up to where it could be shown in the larger arena and excelled. It simple could not get that big body to work in a smaller arena. Got in the high 60's and low 70's once it was moved up.
         

    Quick Reply
    Please help keep the Horse Forum enjoyable by reporting rude posts.
    Message:
    Options

    Register Now

    In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

    Already have a Horse Forum account?
    Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

    New to the Horse Forum?
    Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.

    User Name:
    Password
    Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
    Password:
    Confirm Password:
    Email Address
    Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
    Email Address:

    Log-in

    Human Verification

    In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


    Old Thread Warning
    This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

    Thread Tools

    Similar Threads
    Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
    Pikeur Dressage Coat and Ariat Dressage Boots jklfarm Tack and Equipment Classifieds 1 01-07-2009 09:22 AM
    why do you like dressage? sempre_cantando English Riding 34 12-22-2008 04:32 PM
    Thinking of buying him. what do i need to "beef up" simbakitten Horse Riding Critique 9 11-26-2008 01:48 PM
    KYB Dressage Young_Dressage Horse Videos 3 04-06-2008 03:47 AM
    Dressage horse_luver4e Horse Training 11 02-12-2008 11:18 PM



    All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:55 PM.


    Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
    Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0