Oh english, how I miss thee!
 
 

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Oh english, how I miss thee!

This is a discussion on Oh english, how I miss thee! within the English Riding forums, part of the Riding Horses category
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  • 1 Post By mildot
  • 2 Post By bsms
  • 1 Post By mildot
  • 2 Post By bsms
  • 1 Post By mnl764

 
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    04-08-2012, 12:00 PM
  #1
Foal
Arrow Oh english, how I miss thee!

I miss english riding so much!!! The jumping! The movement! The lighter saddles! The half chaps! The dressage! Sigh... I want my mare to do english (dressage and hunter mostly) but right now we're trying to just get her broke to ride. So I switched to western for a while to get her to really relax and reach more and actually figure out how to balance. We tried dressage training for a while but I think she was just pushing a little to hard because all these vices cropped up shortly after we started training her (crow hopping, incessant backing, refusing to be caught, cinchy). So once we switched to the western pleasure trainer she really started to respond and get real quiet under saddle (not to mention she snuggles me more ). But as I get better and better I just want to ride english more!!!! I can't switch back to the english saddle yet because she's still working out some balance stuff and my trainer doesn't want me falling off if she does something silly. Plus she says it might freak her out if we change something with the training (even though in my opinion a saddle is a saddle and she should live with it). But anyway, does anyone have any ideas for western exercises that are fun for english riders? P.S. If anyone could give me step by step directions on how to teach turn on the forehand and turn on the haunches/hindquarters/the back end of the pony I would be ever so happy!
     
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    04-08-2012, 03:50 PM
  #2
Banned
I fail to see how, in and of itself, is western training "better".

Whatever dressage trainer you took her to did not do you any favors.

The whole point of classical, academic dressage is to take a green horse and make it a supple, correct riding horse.

If your first dressage trainer could not do it, get another one. Western trainers have no lock on this, and I consider western pleasure one of the worst ways to train a horse. Every single one I have seen from that discipline looks downright lame when it moves.

And I'm sorry, but someone who needs a western saddle to ride out spooks and bucks needs to learn to ride with better balance.
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    04-08-2012, 04:50 PM
  #3
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by mildot    
...The whole point of classical, academic dressage is to take a green horse and make it a supple, correct riding horse....

...And I'm sorry, but someone who needs a western saddle to ride out spooks and bucks needs to learn to ride with better balance.
That is nice, but maybe the OP doesn't have a year or two to improve her seat while the horse is a pasture puff.

Some saddles are designed with security in mind. Others are oriented to performance. It isn't wrong to use a saddle with more security to minimize injuries while getting better at riding.

Meanwhile, 'dressage' may be more than the horse is ready for now. If the horse is learning basic balance ("figure out how to balance" & "shes still working out some balance stuff"), then it needs to be given time to learn to readjust its balance with a rider on top. That means riding 101, not dressage or WP or jumping or ANY subsection of riding.

When I had an Arabian mare at that stage, I rode her using both English and Western saddles, but with a rope sidepull halter. We started with walking, changing directions, and slowing. We then added brief trotting. Lilly only weighed 750 lbs, so my 175 lbs was a significant burden for her to adjust to carrying. We did gentle turns, and then slowly tightened them at a walk, and later at a trot.

The key was to keep it simple, and not confuse her (make her angry or frustrated) by asking her to do more than she understood or was physically capable of giving. Make sure she understand bit cues on the ground, and do NOT 'put her in a frame' - WP or dressage or any other frame.

Until she is comfortable with her balance, it isn't fair to ask her to do ANY kind of more advanced work. When she can balance herself easily doing tight turns at a trot, THEN start more "advanced" stuff - and advanced means anything beyond basic moving. Horses don't like falling. If she has balance issues with a rider, then she needs to learn basic carrying a rider's weight - nothing more.

IMHO.

You can do that fine in an English saddle, but don't try sitting the trot until she has built up enough to handle it. Posting trot or two point. Free up her back as much as possible, so she learns from the start to use it.

If you want English style with more security, I suggest Aussie saddles.
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    04-08-2012, 04:53 PM
  #4
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    

Meanwhile, 'dressage' may be more than the horse is ready for now. If the horse is learning basic balance ("figure out how to balance" & "shes still working out some balance stuff"), then it needs to be given time to learn to readjust its balance with a rider on top. That means riding 101, not dressage or WP or jumping or ANY subsection of riding.
Honestly, you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to dressage.

The fact that you even think it is about some kind of "frame" or riding style says it all.

The beginning of dressage IS precisely how to teach a horse to balance itself. I'll take the opinions of Pohdjasky, Steinbrecht, and Seunig over yours about what dressage is or is not.
Kayty likes this.
     
    04-08-2012, 04:55 PM
  #5
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
That is nice, but maybe the OP doesn't have a year or two to improve her seat while the horse is a pasture puff.
Maybe it took you that long. That doesn't make it a rule.
     
    04-08-2012, 05:11 PM
  #6
Banned
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingchange1991    
We tried dressage training for a while but I think she was just pushing a little to hard because all these vices cropped up shortly after we started training her (crow hopping, incessant backing, refusing to be caught, cinchy).
Your problems don't stem from dressage training. They stem from a poor trainer. Find another one whose focus is classical, not competitive dressage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingchange1991    
So once we switched to the western pleasure trainer she really started to respond and get real quiet under saddle
Again, I suspect the change is not due to the different tack, but due to a trainer who is just better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingchange1991    
I can't switch back to the english saddle yet because she's still working out some balance stuff and my trainer doesn't want me falling off if she does something silly. Plus she says it might freak her out if we change something with the training
Something tells me this trainer of yours doesn't want to lose you as a customer and so makes up these nonsense reasons why you can't use the tack you really want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyingchange1991    
(even though in my opinion a saddle is a saddle and she should live with it).
You would be correct.
     
    04-08-2012, 05:24 PM
  #7
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by mildot    
Honestly, you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to dressage.

The fact that you even think it is about some kind of "frame" or riding style says it all...
I don't think it is about a frame. I don't like using the term "frame" with ANY riding. However, if they have been "pushing a little to hard", then I wouldn't be surprised if they have been trying to put her 'in a frame'. And if I tried that with any of my horses, I'd expect "crow hopping, incessant backing, refusing to be caught, cinchy".

"The beginning of dressage IS precisely how to teach a horse to balance itself."

The beginning of ANY riding is teaching the horse to balance with a rider. But if the horse is "crow hopping, incessant backing, refusing to be caught, cinchy", then MAYBE they aren't really following "Pohdjasky, Steinbrecht, and Seunig".

This is not an argument about dressage. It is trying to get a horse off to a good start - and I frankly think that means dropping WP, dressage, hunter...or in terms of the OP's interests on her page, "Bareback, Classical dressage, Companion horse, Dressage, English pleasure, Equitation, Halter, Pleasure trail riding, Showmanship, Western pleasure".

I have little tolerance for the English vs Western garbage arguments. At the Riding 101 stage, there isn't much difference between any of them. They are ALL too advanced for the horse if the horse has balance issues.

And you can allow a horse to learn her balance while riding in any saddle, bit or bitless, etc.
"Maybe it took you that long. That doesn't make it a rule."
I haven't met anyone that is as secure in an English saddle when starting as in an Australian or Western saddle. After all, they were specifically designed to help a rider stay on a half-broke & rebellious horse.

Maybe I am a slow learner. And maybe I like keeping my shoulders intact. All I know about the OP's riding ability is that the trainer doesn't want her to ride English on this horse because "my trainer doesn't want me falling off if she does something silly".

That tells me the OP doesn't have an incredibly balanced seat and that some help from saddle design is appropriate - according to her trainer, who has seen her ride.

I bought an Aussie-style saddle when I hurt my back a few months after taking up riding. For the next 6 months, I couldn't lie down on a bed without stabbing pain. Mounting a horse was a huge challenge, and dismounting sometimes ended with my clinging to the horse to stay upright. I probably shouldn't have ridden at all during those months - but I did.

And with the help of an Aussie-style saddle, I stayed on during a few bolts, and multiple leaps & spins & whirls. It is no more wrong to use a saddle design that helps you than it is to wear a helmet just in case you fall. Both are equipment to improve safety.

And if I close my eyes, I cannot tell the difference in seat between my Bates AP & my DownUnder Master Campdraft. But when the horse hits the fan, I sure can tell the difference!



I'm not attacking dressage or WP, or ANY riding discipline. I am suggesting the OP focus on letting the horse learn her balance in a relaxed, no pressure setting. There IS a difference in how English and Western styles approach using reins, and how the saddle feels to the horse, so changing tack on a horse that has balance issues isn't helping. Pick one and stick to it. When the horse is balanced, THEN you can decide what sport to participate in - if any.
flyingchange1991 and PSNapier like this.
     
    04-08-2012, 06:27 PM
  #8
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsms    
I don't think it is about a frame. I don't like using the term "frame" with ANY riding. However, if they have been "pushing a little to hard", then I wouldn't be surprised if they have been trying to put her 'in a frame'. And if I tried that with any of my horses, I'd expect "crow hopping, incessant backing, refusing to be caught, cinchy".

"The beginning of dressage IS precisely how to teach a horse to balance itself."

The beginning of ANY riding is teaching the horse to balance with a rider. But if the horse is "crow hopping, incessant backing, refusing to be caught, cinchy", then MAYBE they aren't really following "Pohdjasky, Steinbrecht, and Seunig".

This is not an argument about dressage. It is trying to get a horse off to a good start - and I frankly think that means dropping WP, dressage, hunter...or in terms of the OP's interests on her page, "Bareback, Classical dressage, Companion horse, Dressage, English pleasure, Equitation, Halter, Pleasure trail riding, Showmanship, Western pleasure".

I have little tolerance for the English vs Western garbage arguments. At the Riding 101 stage, there isn't much difference between any of them. They are ALL too advanced for the horse if the horse has balance issues.

And you can allow a horse to learn her balance while riding in any saddle, bit or bitless, etc.
"Maybe it took you that long. That doesn't make it a rule."
I haven't met anyone that is as secure in an English saddle when starting as in an Australian or Western saddle. After all, they were specifically designed to help a rider stay on a half-broke & rebellious horse.

Maybe I am a slow learner. And maybe I like keeping my shoulders intact. All I know about the OP's riding ability is that the trainer doesn't want her to ride English on this horse because "my trainer doesn't want me falling off if she does something silly".

That tells me the OP doesn't have an incredibly balanced seat and that some help from saddle design is appropriate - according to her trainer, who has seen her ride.

I bought an Aussie-style saddle when I hurt my back a few months after taking up riding. For the next 6 months, I couldn't lie down on a bed without stabbing pain. Mounting a horse was a huge challenge, and dismounting sometimes ended with my clinging to the horse to stay upright. I probably shouldn't have ridden at all during those months - but I did.

And with the help of an Aussie-style saddle, I stayed on during a few bolts, and multiple leaps & spins & whirls. It is no more wrong to use a saddle design that helps you than it is to wear a helmet just in case you fall. Both are equipment to improve safety.

And if I close my eyes, I cannot tell the difference in seat between my Bates AP & my DownUnder Master Campdraft. But when the horse hits the fan, I sure can tell the difference!



I'm not attacking dressage or WP, or ANY riding discipline. I am suggesting the OP focus on letting the horse learn her balance in a relaxed, no pressure setting. There IS a difference in how English and Western styles approach using reins, and how the saddle feels to the horse, so changing tack on a horse that has balance issues isn't helping. Pick one and stick to it. When the horse is balanced, THEN you can decide what sport to participate in - if any.
I think you have it right. Its not about personal preference, its about what is safest. Everyone here has an opinion about how to start a horse, the Aussie saddle is a great midway point. If she starts western its not a death sentence for switching over to english riding at some later point, and if the trainer feels this is safest for the situation, then so be it. Personally, I tend to have a differing opinion from the trainer BUT I have never seen this horse and rider combo. Anyways, Good luck, be safe and have fun!
flyingchange1991 likes this.
     

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