Some basic dressage hunter jumper questions from newbie
 
 

       The Horse Forum > Riding Horses > English Riding

Some basic dressage hunter jumper questions from newbie

This is a discussion on Some basic dressage hunter jumper questions from newbie within the English Riding forums, part of the Riding Horses category
  • Hunter jumper horsemanship test
  • When is it time to move up a level in dressage

Like Tree1Likes

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
    07-30-2013, 04:13 PM
  #1
Foal
Some basic dressage hunter jumper questions from newbie

So after reading some of your comments, I decided to give the dressage barn a try. I really like that they take the time to teach me how to handle horses in the safest manner, even though they really scared me, but it worked!

I have some general rookie questions

1. Is the hunt/jump seat drastically different? If I want to sometimes to take lesson at the h/j barn just so I can actually get longer time in saddle, would I be utterly confused? She had me sit quite differently. I'm use to a slight forward seat. She asked me to put my hand under my butt and felt my seat bone,she told me the horse would not like that, and had me move my seat a bit back, I felt like i'm not sitting up tall like I was riding h/j, is this right?

2. Leg poition, she kept telling me that my legs need to go back more, I felt like it's beyond what that straight line was, or maybe it was must my position not correct in the first place.

3. She said my tush must be squeezed at all time even just sitting. That was very different...

4. Steering. I was taught to look where I was going and pull rein back to hip. The way she taught me was to move rein towards where you're going and the other rein stays in place? Is this a different method?

Thanks for all your help!
     
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
    07-30-2013, 04:23 PM
  #2
Super Moderator
I'm British so I was very confused when I asked some questions of a really helpful lady at a hunt seat show, she said that the style was based on the hunting seat of 'my' country - well I hunted since I was a small child and never saw anything like it at all!!!
If anything I thought the hunt seat was very short in the stirrups which made leg contact a bit vague (and uncomfortable - would cripple you to sit like that all day hunting)
In dressage and good English (UK) riding the reins are not for hauling the horse around with but used in conjunction with leg and body cues - at a minimum
The short stirrups were forcing all the riders too far back in the saddle
And that strange butt waggling seat at the canter is definitely not going to work in dressage
Yes I think you will find a lot of differences.
     
    07-30-2013, 04:29 PM
  #3
Trained
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayewokf    
I have some general rookie questions
1. Is the hunt/jump seat drastically different? If I want to sometimes to take lesson at the h/j barn just so I can actually get longer time in saddle, would I be utterly confused? She had me sit quite differently. I'm use to a slight forward seat. She asked me to put my hand under my butt and felt my seat bone,she told me the horse would not like that, and had me move my seat a bit back, I felt like i'm not sitting up tall like I was riding h/j, is this right?
LONG ago, when horses were utilitarian, those who rode never took a lesson in their lives. Even 70 years ago people would go over a jump by leaning backwards. (Watch "National Velvet" to see what that looks like.)
The basic "seat" is sitting upright and balanced, shoulder-hip-heels lined up, toes underneath your knee and pulled up to receive the stirrup. Riding fences requires (NOW, the "Italian Method") to ride forward, just like anybody who is racing at a gallop. It's easy to practice riding too forward and you'll fall into the fence if the horse refuses. For H/J you will want to practice 2-point and be able to balance W/T/C in that position, as well as be able to move easily from a deep seat TO 2-point, at will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayewokf    
2. Leg position, she kept telling me that my legs need to go back more, I felt like it's beyond what that straight line was, or maybe it was must my position not correct in the first place.
...see above...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayewokf    
3. She said my tush must be squeezed at all time even just sitting. That was very different...
Not possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fayewokf    
4. Steering. I was taught to look where I was going and pull rein back to hip. The way she taught me was to move rein towards where you're going and the other rein stays in place? Is this a different method?
You steer JUST LIKE when you are driving a car, eyes on the road/arena and looking WHERE you are going, instead of looking down to check your riding position. The reins need to be long enough so that you can easily halt or half halt without leaning MORE forward. Pulling behind you is counterproductive. To rein as a rider you pull back towards you with the inside rein, while giving with the outside rein, rein in between your pinkies and ring fingers. To rein as a DRIVER, you hold the inside rein and give with the outside rein, both reins over your index fingers. The reins should be held ~ 5 inches apart which is the average width of a bit.
My advice is to actively look for some very long trial riding and do it as often as you can the rest of the year. A deep seat is best learned by sitting the horse for multiple consecutive hours--4 or more hours at a time.
Your legs will get tired and you will sit deep in the saddle, type of saddle is your choice. Your legs can't stand pushing you out of the saddle for that amount of time, so your legs will hang naturally underneath you.
It is impossible to squeeze your butt muscles for 4 or more hours. Even professional ballet dancers don't do that.
I think your teacher was trying to teach you all of the cues for a full halt and half-halt, but you squeeze, then release when the horse responds, so I don't concur.
     
    07-30-2013, 06:12 PM
  #4
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corporal    
LONG ago, when horses were utilitarian, those who rode never took a lesson in their lives. Even 70 years ago people would go over a jump by leaning backwards. (Watch "National Velvet" to see what that looks like.)
The basic "seat" is sitting upright and balanced, shoulder-hip-heels lined up, toes underneath your knee and pulled up to receive the stirrup. Riding fences requires (NOW, the "Italian Method") to ride forward, just like anybody who is racing at a gallop. It's easy to practice riding too forward and you'll fall into the fence if the horse refuses. For H/J you will want to practice 2-point and be able to balance W/T/C in that position, as well as be able to move easily from a deep seat TO 2-point, at will.

...see above...

Not possible.

You steer JUST LIKE when you are driving a car, eyes on the road/arena and looking WHERE you are going, instead of looking down to check your riding position. The reins need to be long enough so that you can easily halt or half halt without leaning MORE forward. Pulling behind you is counterproductive. To rein as a rider you pull back towards you with the inside rein, while giving with the outside rein, rein in between your pinkies and ring fingers. To rein as a DRIVER, you hold the inside rein and give with the outside rein, both reins over your index fingers. The reins should be held ~ 5 inches apart which is the average width of a bit.
My advice is to actively look for some very long trial riding and do it as often as you can the rest of the year. A deep seat is best learned by sitting the horse for multiple consecutive hours--4 or more hours at a time.
Your legs will get tired and you will sit deep in the saddle, type of saddle is your choice. Your legs can't stand pushing you out of the saddle for that amount of time, so your legs will hang naturally underneath you.
It is impossible to squeeze your butt muscles for 4 or more hours. Even professional ballet dancers don't do that.
I think your teacher was trying to teach you all of the cues for a full halt and half-halt, but you squeeze, then release when the horse responds, so I don't concur.

I hope she meant for the purpose of what I was learning (I was trotting btw), she wanted me to be squeezing my butt. I never do that unless I am giving a cue, squeeze and let go,,, so I was confused.

Another thing that was weird- I asked her if I was in the right diagonal, she said it doesn't matter....they mostly sit their trots?!
     
    07-30-2013, 06:19 PM
  #5
Trained
I don't think she knows what she is doing. I think you should do some reading. My favorite books on the topics are:
"Hunter Seat Equitation"
George Morris
Http://www.amazon.com/Hunter-Seat-Equitation-George-Morris/dp/0385413688
"The Complete Training of Horse and Rider"
Alois Podhajsky
Http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Training-Horse-Rider-Podhajsky/dp/0879802359/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1375219035&sr=1-1&keywords=the+complete+training+of+horse+and+rider
     
    07-30-2013, 06:46 PM
  #6
Yearling
Corporal had a decent explanation..let me expand :). The "hunt" seat was originally developed in Britain as the style of riding for foxhunting..which is where the term "hunter" comes from..a hunter isn't a breed of horse but a way of going. Long, low strides that conserved energy for a day of galloping and jumping. Not sure where jumpers came into play but the idea behind jumpers is simply to get over the fences in the fastest time possible. IF the horse crawls over the jump it is fine as long as they don't knock it over and are the fastest in the round. The hunt seat saddle is designed with a slightly more forward flap to allow the rider to be more forward in their position in preparation for jumping. A slightly more forward position simply means the hip angle is a little more closed.

A dressage seat is also referred to as a balanced seat. This position is more upright with the hip angle more open. The flaps of the dressage saddle are straighter to accommodate the more vertical position and the seat is much deeper to allow the rider to sink their weight down or "sit deep."

The leg position itself doe snot change between the two. There should be a straight line from the hip to the heel with the bars of the stirrup iron essentially even with the girth. This gives the rider a base of support for jumping by sinking the weight into the heels when in two point over the jump, and also for the dressage rider to maintain that more balanced seat. A leg too far back or too far forward (call it the sitting in a chair seat) pushes the rider too far forwards or backwards and throws off their balance. Try standing in place with your feet a little further ahead of you than normal..how much balance do you have?...do the same with your feet a little further back...this is the same thing in the saddle.

Moving from a hunt seat saddle to a dressage saddle is, or can be, hard. I went from a very flat equitation hunt seat saddle to a dressage saddle...despite having ridden and jumped for better than 25 years, I had to learn to post all over again...I had no balance in that dressage saddle. Cantering on the other hand was super extra comfy in that dressage saddle :). A lady at our barn learned to ride horses inn a dressage saddle and she has had ot make the same change that I did form the other direction..she was put into a hunt seat saddle and her balance was all over the place because she wasn't used to the smaller hip angle (leaning forward a little more).

The shorter iron length for jump[ing is just a balance issue. It allows the rider to sink their weight into their heels more and gives a better base of support. The idea of raising your irons up one hole per foot of fence that I learned is a little extreme. In truth even over the higher 3-4 foot jumps I was working with I never went up more than one hole from my usual flatwork and had no issues.

Rein aids: When first learning to ride the rider is taught to use the reins to turn the horse in the direction..like a steering wheel as was pointed out. As the rider advances, the rein aids become more subtle...not sure how to explain the difference :) but the idea is not to pull left or right but to use your leg to bend the horse and the reins keep the shoulder in line...outside rein blocks the outside shoulder from going further out, inside rein allows the inside shoulder to open and the horse to "turn." Now, in a jumper ring where they are turning on a dime, riders do pull them around just due to sheer lack of distance but this type of rein aid also can affect the horse's balance. In dressage the outside rein controls speed, the inside rein controls bend (both of the body and that "on the bit" position of the head). The outside rein should not move from position and this is one I had a hard time with..as a former h/j type my outside hand was always busy and moving trying to bring the horse back...once I learned, or forced myself, to keep that hand still and to use my inside hand properly, my horse came back much easier.

YOur instructor was half right with the sitting trot..the test in third and fourth level are done at the sitting trot..the lower levels the rider posts. Due to the changes in direction, such as serpentines, the rider does not change the diagonal at each change of direction..this is also true for trotting across the diagonal..the rider changes the post at the corner and not I the center as changing in the center can throw off the horse's rhythm.

In the lower levels diagonals DO count for collective scores (call it equitation) but this is only on the obvious sides tracking left or right on a straight line. AS an aside, if a dressage rider carries a dressage whip there is no "inside" hand in which to hold the whip..the rider simply carries it in whichever hand is comfortable because there are so many changes of direction in a test..the rider would be constantly flipping the whip from side to side.

Squeezing the buttocks in the trot..that is for the up beat. She didn't mean it as a cue to get the horse to move forward..that squeeze is in the leg. At the up beat of the trot when you are going up, squeeze with the buttocks to push yourself up and forward from the hip but your leg is also squeezing on the up beat to move the horse forward.

I have probably mashed up some of the explanation as I can DO the riding but have a hard time articulating how it is done :)
Fayewokf likes this.
     
    07-30-2013, 07:01 PM
  #7
Super Moderator
Not totally right tlkng1 a british hunter isn't a breed as you say but it is a type of horse - in the show ring they come in small, lightweight, middleweight and heavyweight classes on the flat plus working hunter over fences
They have to look as if they will withstand a days hunting
You will still see many people 'sitting back' over fences and stirrup length is for comfort - not unusual to see some 'chair seats' as you call them!!!
I would still expect to be on the correct diagonal in posting trot on a circle in dressage training as it helps the horses balance and transitions
     
    07-30-2013, 07:10 PM
  #8
Yearling
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaydee    
Not totally right tlkng1 a british hunter isn't a breed as you say but it is a type of horse - in the show ring they come in small, lightweight, middleweight and heavyweight classes on the flat plus working hunter over fences
They have to look as if they will withstand a days hunting
You will still see many people 'sitting back' over fences and stirrup length is for comfort - not unusual to see some 'chair seats' as you call them!!!
I would still expect to be on the correct diagonal in posting trot on a circle in dressage training as it helps the horses balance and transitions
Correct..it is a type of horse but it is based upon how the horse moves; any breed of horse can be considered a "hunter" if the movement is there. The horse needs to move with a long low frame..for example, they do not have a high leg action like you might see on something on a saddlebred. High level hunters tend to have what I refer to as a flat kneed canter..there is almost no bend at all in the front. A horse that is a "hunter" has a steady but not fast pace and tends to clear fences low..they don't overjump (or aren't supposed to) as it takes more energy to overjump a fence..which would be difficult over a day of foxhunting :).

And correct on the dressage circles..I said straight line didn't I. Yes, if doing a crirle to the left or right the rider would be on the correct diagonal unless they were sitting the test.
     
    07-30-2013, 07:44 PM
  #9
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corporal    
LONG ago, when horses were utilitarian, those who rode never took a lesson in their lives. Even 70 years ago people would go over a jump by leaning backwards. (Watch "National Velvet" to see what that looks like.)
What exactly do you mean by "leaning backwards"? I have a very strange picture in my head of someone taking off over a 3' jump with their head pointing towards the tail and it seems extremely unbalanced I may watch National Velvet to see what you're talking about!

One thing that I have learned over the years is that when correcting position problems is that if it feels wrong (within reason), then you're probably doing it right! Changes always feel really weird and incorrect for me, and it takes time to correct muscle memory and get it right.
     
    07-30-2013, 07:51 PM
  #10
Yearling
You aren't too far from the truth about the position..here is the trailer for the National Velvet movie:

National Velvet - Rotten Tomatoes

About second 56 or so.
     

Quick Reply
Please help keep the Horse Forum enjoyable by reporting rude posts.
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the The Horse Forum forums, you must first register.

Already have a Horse Forum account?
Members are allowed only one account per person at the Horse Forum, so if you've made an account here in the past you'll need to continue using that account. Please do not create a new account or you may lose access to the Horse Forum. If you need help recovering your existing account, please Contact Us. We'll be glad to help!

New to the Horse Forum?
Please choose a username you will be satisfied with using for the duration of your membership at the Horse Forum. We do not change members' usernames upon request because that would make it difficult for everyone to keep track of who is who on the forum. For that reason, please do not incorporate your horse's name into your username so that you are not stuck with a username related to a horse you may no longer have some day, or use any other username you may no longer identify with or care for in the future.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.


Old Thread Warning
This thread is more than 90 days old. When a thread is this old, it is often better to start a new thread rather than post to it. However, If you feel you have something of value to add to this particular thread, you can do so by checking the box below before submitting your post.

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hunter, Jumper, Dressage... from gloves to saddles... it ALL must go! vxf111 Tack and Equipment Classifieds 10 10-25-2011 06:55 AM
Hunter Jumper Dressage Breeding Cowgirlzluvaqhas Horses for Sale 0 04-24-2011 04:30 PM
Dressage rider to Hunter/Jumper riding Sophia Jumping 5 12-20-2010 03:04 PM
Hunter/Jumper/Dressage Pony for sale in TX ocalagirl Horses for Sale 1 05-06-2010 11:35 PM
basic dressage exercises for a hunter dreamrideredc Dressage 6 02-21-2010 10:41 AM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0