WHY HEELS DOWN and not UP?

It's painful for me to keep my heels down, but I know it's the safest way to go so I keep them down.

Riding with Margaret Spencer has made me learn, very, very well, what MIE was referring to. "Seat, seat, seat," has been drilled into me so much now, that I can't remember how I rode when I had no concept of seat.
I first began riding under a bad coach, but I didn't know that at the time- heck, I was seven, it was a fancy barn, horses were nice, I jumped, and it was fun. I am so grateful that she had to sell the farm- I never would have known any better.
Riding with Margaret has expanded my horizons. Last winter, I think I rode with my stirrups once. Bareback or stirrup-less, I learned that seat is everything, not my hands, not my heels. I had never been taught that seat was so important, but last winter, man, was I slammed with it. =]
Yeah, riding without stirrups scared me at first- I was all over the place, scared to trot, afraid I would come off. Now, I love it. I think it's the most connected I can ever feel to my equine partner. Frankly, if I could, I would ride stirrup-less, even bareback, in shows. My warm-up and cool-down consists of crossed irons, both to stretch and relax my legs, as well as to balance and find my seat.
Stirrups and heels aren't really the question- it's whether or not you have the seat and leg strength to ride without. Riding without improved my position overall so much that I keep it a regular aspect in my riding. Who needs heels and stirrups when they can have seat and legs?

This thread continues to attract readers - yet the debate has not yet reached an obvious conclusion other than:

The position of the foot and angle of the heel is decided by the position of the riders leg and under thigh.
Some riders find it positively difficult to maintain a heels down position of the foot.

So do we see the culprit to be the stirrup?

Is the stirrup iron a positive aid to rider stability and an essential item
of safety equipment?

or

Is the stirrup the root of all evil which encourages the rider to sit incorrectly by allowing the foot, when firmly planted in the stirrup iron, to be used as a re-balancing aid. Should we discard the stirrup?

Is the prime function of the stirrup iron to be to assist mounting?

Is a key function of a stirrup iron for male riders, who are physiologically different from women, to avoid pain?

But if we say the stirrup iron is irrelevant then:

Why should we want to discard the use of the toes as a balancing aid?

and

Why do women insist on wearing high heeled shoes?

Barry G

I guess it did sound like I was saying stirrups are irrelevant- I wasn't actually meaning to. Stirrups do help in mounting, yes, and in Eventing, especially cross-country, it is nice to have an emergency balancer. I would stress that I think it's important that beginner riders learn without stirrups, both to develop seat, but almost as importantly, leg strength. I see so many riders relying too much on their stirrups to post, hold 2-point, or really do much of anything. Though frustrating, and time-consuming, riding without stirrups is an exellent way to gain balance and riding ability. There are just too many riders riding, showing, and eventing simply because they have the money to pay entry fees and purchase horses who will do their best to stay under them and make them look good. Riding takes work, and stirrups can be the one riding aid that hinders more than helps, if people aren't willing to put in the time and effort to ride well without relying on safety nets and cheat-sheets.
~Dinah

P.S: High heels make me too tall, so I usually don't, but I'm among the uncommon few. =] They do make us feel prettier, though.

This thread is so very interesting, I was so engrossed I over ran the idle time limit on a game.
I've always been taught heels down as well and until one instructor would correct my leg I probably rode with a horrible leg position. I actually got into the habit of pushing my heels down too far and found out that once I had my feet in the stirrups my heels would relax down so I stopped pushing them down and my balance improved no end. I would often ride out then kick my feet out of the stirrups and go for a trot and canter. One thing that helped me was learning how to do rising trot without stirrups, nearly killed my muscles.
Like you though I would end up in pain from pushing my heels down because I actually can't do it due to having flat feet so my ankles have developed in a funny way so I can't move my ankles as well as other people.

(I haven't read every post on the thread)

I was always told to keep my heels down, and I've never had a problem keeping my heels down, I was told it was to help keep my seat deep in the saddle and to help keep my upper body straight - supposedly if you point your toes down you tilt your whole body forward...

In later years I've been told it's so that you calf muscle is 'tense' and becomes a more efficient aid as the horse can immediately feel you using your legs, which I suppose makes sense!




Um, I'm going to say "yes" to both parts of the question...

I don't use my stirrups to balance myself - having even length stirrups would [obviously] help you to make sure you sit squarely on the horse's back, I've been told not to 'lean' on the stirrup iron, but to push my weight into my heels and let my toes rest in the stirrup. I do often have a problem keeping my feet in the stirrups for some reason!

If it weren't for stirrups I wouldn't be able to get on the horse unless someone lifted me in a crane!

I'm a woman so first of all I have to do the obligatory girlie laugh at the mental image of a man getting a whack in the unmentionables

If you're sitting correctly on your seat bones, your 'little friend' shouldn't be in any danger!!

I'll have to try riding toes down and get back to you on that one! :)

I don't wear high heels

I read the first four or so pages of this thread and no one mentioned that your entire leg position (and entire body position) will significantly change if you heels are up vs. down.

The heel being down with weight sinking into it elongates the entire leg. Your thigh becomes more vertical and your calf can lay softly against your horse. Proper position for any number of reasons: balance, effective and economic use of aids, safety, etc.

If your heel is up, your calf anatomically cannot lay softly against your horse and your thigh becomes more vertical. This puts you out of balance, with no security and no effective way to produce the aids. It will also effect your seat by influencing the pelvis. Often you will see riders with this position leaning or hunched forwards, trying to maintain their balance and pinching in with their knees for (false) security. This is because the heel up has made their leg fairly useless and influenced their seat poorly and now they are in a position resembling sitting in a chair with the ball of their toes resting on the floor. In riding the upper body will come forward to try to regain balance. Unfortunately, this puts you in a very precarious position and if something unexpected happens, or beyond the persons ability to balance in their poor position, they will then fall off. Usually over the horses shoulder.

The seat is extremely important in balance, independence of aids and security, however you will not ever achieve a really good seat with a really bad leg. The two are connected!

You can see this for yourself by having an educated rider, who is capable of a correct position demonstrate the heel down vs. heel up. Don't just look at the foot and ankle! Watch the WHOLE body, especially look at how the entire leg shortens and goes upwards when the heel comes up.

You can also see the difference yourself by standing on the bottom stair of a staircase with the balls of your feet on the edge of the stair and the majority of your feet hanging off. Hold onto a railing for balance in the beginning. And again, do this on the BOTTOM stair. Keep some bend in the knee and bounce a little. Allow the weight and small impact of the bounce to go into your heel. (Yet another reason for heels down while riding - shock absorption). Do that for a minute. Then go ahead and put your heel up. Feel how your entire body position has to change to maintain your balance now. Try bouncing now.

It is okay if you cannot get your heel down, some people cannot. But you should keep trying to stretch and try to increase flexibility. And you should keep trying to achieve the process of allowing any weight to go down to the heel even if it's not visibly lower. Allowing the weight to go to your toe will make your body want to keep tipping forwards. So even if the heel isn't down, putting your weight/shock absorption there will help you maintain your balance and a better position.

It's not easy. But there are ALOT of reasons for it and it is correct.

The best instructor I ever had explained everything so that I understood why, just like you suggest they should, Barry.
My first lesson with her I was trying to make a good impression so I had my heels very much down. The first thing she said is 'Bl**dy pony club!' and told me to stop forcing my heels down. She told me it would make my leg shoot forward and leave me behind the movement. Rather I should imagine my weight going into my little toe, which would curl my leg around the horse, giving my leg stability. Instantly, I felt like my position was more natural, but it also looked correct -just not that exaggerated heels down position I had before. It also rolled my thighs forward so it wasn't the backs of my thighs that were in contact with the saddle but the insides. My knee could also relax. All of these things mean more of your leg is in contact with the horse, meaning that your aids will be more accurate and clear and your seat more stable. My seat and leg position still needs work, but I'm convinced it won't get better until I commit to improving the flexibility of my hamstrings. I have never tried posting without stirrups but I'm going to have a go asap! I can't really answer the question about the point of stirrups. My feeling is that for dressage they shouldn't really be necessary and I can imagine a day when we don't use stirrups for dressage at all (I don't expect it, but I can imagine it).

The thread goes on. 1700 plus viewers - amazing. Obviously still a hot topic.

Yes, both Tara and Huckleberry add to the discussion in clear terminology. In order to keep the heels down without stress, it is essential that the leg is rolled inwards so that the inside of the thigh comes in contact - the foot will then be aligned with the body of the horse. Thereby a newcomer acquires a nice firm seat. Well done.

I have no questions about the correct way but I do have serious doubts as to whether many of we “heels up” folks can ever safely achieve “heels down”.
It is also agreed that to force the heels down without rolling the leg is a false movement - the heel (and the leg) should drop of its own accord. The rider in question is obviously looking to please the instructor - it won’t achieve a safer position.

The fact remains that the mature rider who has ridden for many years with “heels up” and who rides by balancing out pressure generated through the balls of the feet onto the stirrup bars will find it difficult to change his/her action. They may have lessons and they may be told to push heels down but whether they can override an acquired and now instinctive reaction to exert pressure through the balls of the foot is very problematical. As a reflex action the heels will continue to rise in an emergency.
The older the rider is, the harder it will be to maintain the desired result of “heels down“. For a start the rider will have first had to stretch the hamstrings and the other calf and ankle focussed ligaments.
By using the stirrup bars as balancing aids the heels up riders have acquired a sense of security by exerting pressure through their feet and especially through their toes when pushing down. The brain has adjusted and has made compensations for the rider’s fundamental state of imbalance.

If the stirrups are taken away from these heels up riders, they will have nothing to use as leverage to stay on the back of the horse in times of stress - other than a little help from knee rolls or a high pommel (such as the horn of a Western saddles) or a high cantle such as is to be found on some Spanish saddles. Without stirrups, unless these riders are wedged in the saddle - they will come off. They know that. They won’t try to ride without stirrups.
If when out riding they do lose a stirrup, they will be vulnerable. So such riders will concentrate on not losing the stirrup by maintaining a constant pressure on the stirrup bar. They will learn the knack. The brain will have been accustomed to rebalancing itself by pushing down - if necessary with a significant percentage of their total body weight - onto the stirrup bars. They will lean, they will grip, they will shift weight. They will stay mounted. But the horse masters looking on won’t approve.

Further more if the “heels up” rider has deficiencies in the ears, the eyes, a misplaced pelvis or problems in the hips then if they attempt to change their leg position to “heels down“, they may well lose the benefit of the adjustments their brain has made as compensation over the years for a fundamental and incurable state of imbalance.

The curious rider may well understand why and what to do as best practice but they may themselves not be able to instinctively respond correctly in times of emergency. To illustrate the problem, as a right handed person ‘instruct’ yourself to write with the left hand? One writes “instinctively”

But, anyway, why change the habits of a lifetime?
The stirrups are there as a standard fitting on the saddle why not use them? They are an aid to safety - why discard them?
Is there any real benefit from be able to ride without stirrups?
Will the “heels up” rider be more secure in the saddle by trying to learn to sit correctly?
Indeed, will the “heels up” rider be more vulnerable to a fall during the process of trying to change their leg and heel position?
My farrier said today that the chance of deliberately modifying the gait of a horse after the age of 6 is minimal. The chance of modifying the ‘riding action’ of an adult human say over 20 years of age is also minimal. As the saying goes “you can’t teach an old dog(horse?) new tricks”

So why try? If I am thereby to forsake the pleasure of being judged favourably in a dressage competition - is that such a high price to pay?

I must confess as a very aged rider, my ideas on the subject are personal. I realize my balancing mechanism is compromised but I am not alone in my plight. Such folks as I can form a club worldwide.

I can still ride a horse, although I shall never again exhibit a shapely ankle. My feet will be firmly home on the stirrup bars which I shall use like the rudder of a plane. Those heels, bless their cotton socks, are still going to rise - inevitably.

You folks who were lucky enough to be taught to ride correctly, when you were young and impressionable, spare a thought for, and have mercy upon, we poor mature souls who can’t keep our heels down. Look the other way. Luckily my horse, DiDi, knows only too well my little weaknesses and she compensates for my fallability

Barry G

But, anyway, why change the habits of a lifetime?
Why not? Why quit smoking, or eat better or exercise more, or take up a new hobby or learn a new skill? ... to improve oneself in some way.

The stirrups are there as a standard fitting on the saddle why not use them? They are an aid to safety - why discard them?
What happens when you lose a stirrup? Or a leather breaks?

Is there any real benefit from be able to ride without stirrups?
Yes, there are many. Among them is improving the seat and being able to actually stay on your horse without either or both stirrups in a emergency situation.

Will the “heels up” rider be more secure in the saddle by trying to learn to sit correctly?
The heels up rider won't be able to learn to sit correctly. The heel being up effects everything above it.

Indeed, will the “heels up” rider be more vulnerable to a fall during the process of trying to change their leg and heel position?
The heels up rider is vulnerable to falls at all times. You are in a constantly insecure position. Sorry, but that is the truth.

My farrier said today that the chance of deliberately modifying the gait of a horse after the age of 6 is minimal. The chance of modifying the ‘riding action’ of an adult human say over 20 years of age is also minimal. As the saying goes “you can’t teach an old dog(horse?) new tricks”
I think your farrier was most likely referring to deliberately changing the gait of a horse by way of modifying the hoof. If you haven't done the modification by that age, it can be very hard to change it later. Ask anyone who has gotten a OTTB with under run heels. Really hard to fix once they've been trimmed/growing that way for years.

So why try? If I am thereby to forsake the pleasure of being judged favourably in a dressage competition - is that such a high price to pay?
Why try to improve at anything? Why learn anything? Why not accept the level it takes to "just get by" in any enterprise?

Look Barry, if you can't get your heels down, then you can't. Not the end of the world. But it will limit your skill level, prevent you from improving and keep you in a position where you are at risk for a fall at any time. If you just can't get your heels to sink down (not jammed down, etc).. then you just can't. No one is saying you should not ride, or whatnot... go enjoy your horse, have fun, don't worry about being perfect. It IS possible to enjoy riding and horse ownership without being a picture perfect top notch rider. But in lessons or conversations with instructors (the point of which is invariably to learn to ride better) you're always going to come up against the fact that heels up is never going to be A-OK because it DOES directly effect how good a rider you will be able to become. It directly effects the leg and seat... which then effects everything else.

Don't worry about it if you don't want to. It's OK to just have fun and enjoy your horse. Really! Just don't expect anyone worth their salt to tell you it's OK, or just as good as heels down, to have your heels up.