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Barefoot Eventing?

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  • Have any vets students done placements in camargue
  • Horse shoe spikes for eventing

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    05-16-2012, 01:16 AM
  #61
Yearling
Although we never got around to doing a lot of eventing (**** lack of float) prin and did a lot of ARC, jumping up to HRCAV level 2 but predominately l3 sj and xc.

She was fine with it but home was hard and rocky. She actually had dream feet and didn't see a farrier in 5 years. The rocks naturally wore down her feet and she never pulled up lame. Yes I had her feet checked regularly by people more knowledgeable than myself.

Years later she did develop arthritis but I'm blaming that on her old owners jumping her 6ft as a 3yo.

Then we progressed to hoof boots when she was being ridden. I've just started hunting her and the first 2 hunts she was barefoot. The only issue she had was a long trot down a gravel road. I then got her shod with aluminium shoes just in front and she's right as rain!

I say go for it! See how she goes and judge according to your terrain and what she's used to.
     
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    05-22-2012, 10:54 PM
  #62
Trained
Went XC schooling in the pouring rain yesterday. Suffice to say, very wet grass. My 4 months into barefoot horse tore around like a nut having a ball. Not a single slip...I'm done worrying about that particular aspect of it.
     
    05-22-2012, 11:01 PM
  #63
Green Broke
That's awesome MBP!

Slipping I worry about with my mare, she slips quite a bit in wet conditions...
     
    05-23-2012, 06:48 PM
  #64
Foal
I event both my TBs one is an OTTB barefoot

I event both of my TBs barefoot (jumping Prelim height schooling) and im not in any hurry to shoe them until it is absolutely necessary. Remember horses even the "new" breeds of today were meant to travel across all types of terrain as they roamed for food, shelter, mates etc. All being barefoot trimmed naturally by the rocks, hard ground and gravelly surfaces. Its not a trait that is ever going to be bred out of them at any time soon, it took 1000's of year for them to evolve they way they are now it would take just as long to breed out or de-evolve a specific aspect of them. We humans just have given some of them the opportunity to survive with vet, farrier, etc where out in the wild they may not have been so lucky and its just part of natures cycle.

Yes though it is horse by horse case though. There are some that just weren't born with the structure to handle the type of strain eventing puts on them. So therefore shoes are a necessary thing. But Shoes on horses aren't natural to their hoof structure. Shoes put extra force on the hoof wall itself unless you use added pads or a egg or circle bar shoe, over time shoes will actually cause damage to the horse's hoof and soundness too from separation of the laminae from the wall and the bone.

You may say well mine wore shoes 30yrs or so never had a problem, that horse probably had feet that could survive anything and you were very blessed. Like I said their are great shoes that do offer support like for navicular, ringbone, etc and that keep horses sound all year round.

Just don't shoe a horse just to shoe it though because its the thing to do or because someone says its necessary look into research and asking your vet, farrier, trainer etc and get a wide variety of opinions and see what matches your ideas and goals for the horse.

Just MHO
     
    06-01-2012, 11:52 AM
  #65
Weanling
Quote:
Originally Posted by SavvyEventer    
I event both of my TBs barefoot (jumping Prelim height schooling) and im not in any hurry to shoe them until it is absolutely necessary. Fantastic. Always nice to hear of horse who are happy barefoot, my first horse was barefoot, and when they perform well without shoes that's great (and much cheaper!) Remember horses even the "new" breeds of today were meant to travel across all types of terrain as they roamed for food, shelter, mates etc. All being barefoot trimmed naturally by the rocks, hard ground and gravelly surfaces. First point I disagree with. Most of the 'new' breeds have never had to live wild, and have lived in domesticated situations for thousands of years. They are no longer as well adapted to that environment as some breeds, e.g. Mustangs, Camargues, New Forest, brumbies and other breeds that often live feral. Many newer breeds developed AFTER shoes were invented and have not had any consistent breed-wide experience without them esp types like WBs and TBs. Its not a trait that is ever going to be bred out of them at any time soon, it took 1000's of year for them to evolve they way they are now it would take just as long to breed out or de-evolve a specific aspect of them. Again, just no. Selective breeding (which I did my dissertation on) can drastically alter species phenotypes within a few generations - studies have been done showing a six generation evolution from a wild-type fox to the phenotype of a domestic dog. We SERIOUSLY mess with what horses are naturally like when we breed them. Not every breed has been altered to the point where they need shoes in the field or to be pasture puffs, but some have even gotten that far, and many of the highly selected breeds like TBs, WBs and other hot competition breeds really will go lame if you ride them even in arenas without shoes. We humans just have given some of them the opportunity to survive with vet, farrier, etc where out in the wild they may not have been so lucky and its just part of natures cycle. But in nature they don't event, jump four-foot course when they could just walk around them, trot on roads... and wild-type horses avoid highly rocky and hard ground as much as possible, as it is less fertile and offers less food.

Yes though it is horse by horse case though. So true. Some are perfectly fine without, many just can't cope. Some in the middle are fine either way.There are some that just weren't born with the structure to handle the type of strain eventing puts on them. So therefore shoes are a necessary thing. But Shoes on horses aren't natural to their hoof structure. Shoes put extra force on the hoof wall itself unless you use added pads or a egg or circle bar shoe, over time shoes will actually cause damage to the horse's hoof and soundness too from separation of the laminae from the wall and the bone. Laminitis (which is what you describe with laminae separation) is to do with diet, blood sugars and stress altering the chemical makeup of the hoof. Nothing to do with farriery, but with your horses type, diet and stress levels. Wrongly shod feet can have problems, yes, but a well-fitted shoe doesn't cause problems to the hoof. It's like saying your well fitting walking shoe is bad for you because it's adding extra weight to the bottom of your foot...

You may say well mine wore shoes 30yrs or so never had a problem, that horse probably had feet that could survive anything and you were very blessed.MOST horses go all their lives with no issues due to shoes (admittedly some farriers are useless, but with a good one you very rarely see shoe-related problems). I don't see how a gadget designed to make your horses life easier is something that you are 'blessed' if it doesn't ruin your horses feet. If shoeing was bad for a horse, it would have been realised and adapted - there's enough money in the industry that there's plenty of research funding for shoes and adaptive shoeing. like I said their are great shoes that do offer support like for navicular, ringbone, etc and that keep horses sound all year round.

Just don't shoe a horse just to shoe it though because its the thing to do or because someone says its necessary look into research and asking your vet, farrier, trainer etc and get a wide variety of opinions and see what matches your ideas and goals for the horse. This I agree with - every horse is different, and it;s worth finding out what best suits you, your horse and what you intend to do together.

Just MHO
Yeah, not to sound too ranty, but as a vet student I've done enough studying of horses' feet (they're a pretty big deal in terms of what can go wrong with horses) and farriery, unless its poorly done, is far from detrimental. It's not everyone's cup of tea, sure, and there are horses who are fine without shoes. But don't go claiming that barefoot is the way to go because shoeing is intrinsically bad for your horse, because its not.
     
    06-01-2012, 12:30 PM
  #66
Started
I event my clyde cross barefoot, and he's great. He's only been shod once, a few summers back when it was very hot and dry and his feet got bruised because he doesn't have the greatest feet and can get tender on hard ground.

I hunter pace and hunt very aggressively with my TB who I tried barefoot for 6+ years to no avail. I tried practically every trimming method, supplements, topicals from rainmaker to keratex to fiebings and more, and every boot on the market. Not only was it a very expensive venture, my poor horse was miserable and abscessed every time the wind blew the wrong way. End result was I finally gave up and put on shoes in front and ended up with a very happy and sound horse. As we got more aggressive in hunting, we added cleats to the front and the difference in traction b/t front and hind was noticeable so added cleats behind as well. I prefer either bare all around or cleats all around when talking traction control.

The tb is now bare for a few mos each winter, shod w/cleats all around in hunting seasons (spring/fall) and in flat steel shoes front only for summer when we're just doing primarily ring work and hacking trails far less aggressively.

To each his own. I used to believe barefoot was better no matter what, but after hands on experience, and owning 7+ horses, i've learned, to each his own. The TB's full sister is barefoot all around without issue - so sometimes there's more than just genetics at play.

Do what's best for your horse. For traction, I prefer either bare all around, or cleats all around depending on the individual horse's needs.
     
    06-01-2012, 04:58 PM
  #67
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by minstrel    
Yeah, not to sound too ranty, but as a vet student I've done enough studying of horses' feet (they're a pretty big deal in terms of what can go wrong with horses) and farriery, unless its poorly done, is far from detrimental. It's not everyone's cup of tea, sure, and there are horses who are fine without shoes. But don't go claiming that barefoot is the way to go because shoeing is intrinsically bad for your horse, because its not.
Actually the mechanical science proves shoes put and underlying unnatural force onto the hoof wall. Get you facts correct. A tennis shoe fits my whole foot. A horse shoe only attaches and goes around the hoof wall two very different things and to very different force impacts. You're trying to compare apples to oranges. Here's video proof of what forces shoes put onto the hoof wall if you're not squeamish though you shouldn't be if you're a so called vet student. Videoclips I never said barefoot was the only way to go boy you ignorant people love putting words into the mouths of others. A great professor didn't have us purchase the so called book for our course (it was a medical book) because their are more than one way to do something and get the same or better results and she wanted us to gain knowledge from many sources and not just one author in one book. That's a good skill to learn to research not just the popular or traditional ways but see how they do it in other countries, places or even in your own neighborhood people do things differently and one way is not better than the other especially if the same results occur. Its all opinions, history is a collection of human stories and much of history is lost because some people didn't get to have their story written or it was changed down the way to suit others ideals and knowledge that they wanted passed down. Just food for thought.

Originally Posted by SavvyEventer
I event both of my TBs barefoot (jumping Prelim height schooling) and im not in any hurry to shoe them until it is absolutely necessary. Fantastic. Always nice to hear of horse who are happy barefoot, my first horse was barefoot, and when they perform well without shoes that's great (and much cheaper!) Remember horses even the "new" breeds of today were meant to travel across all types of terrain as they roamed for food, shelter, mates etc. All being barefoot trimmed naturally by the rocks, hard ground and gravelly surfaces. First point I disagree with. Most of the 'new' breeds have never had to live wild, and have lived in domesticated situations for thousands of years. They are no longer as well adapted to that environment as some breeds, e.g. Mustangs, Camargues, New Forest, brumbies and other breeds that often live feral. Many newer breeds developed AFTER shoes were invented and have not had any consistent breed-wide experience without them esp types like WBs and TBs.Actually just because they were Nurtured in a barn or stall though many especially TBs are field raised that's not going to change their Nature. IF raising them in a barn so called changed their feet how come after 1000's of years with people and living in towns etc they STILL ACT LIKE PREY ANIMALS??? BECAUSE IT"S IN THEIR NATURE TO DO SO. Their anatomy is still not going to be changed because we raised them in a barn. That's like saying a baby born on the street can't be the same as a human born in a house. You are talking nurture where I was talking nature. Its not a trait that is ever going to be bred out of them at any time soon, it took 1000's of year for them to evolve they way they are now it would take just as long to breed out or de-evolve a specific aspect of them. Again, just no. Selective breeding (which I did my dissertation on) can drastically alter species phenotypes within a few generations - studies have been done showing a six generation evolution from a wild-type fox to the phenotype of a domestic dog.Horses aren't dogs. Dogs have a very malleable genotype that allows their genes to mutate within 3 generations or less Eugenics has proven how malleable dogs genes are. They are the only creature like that. Again trying to compare apples to oranges. We SERIOUSLY mess with what horses are naturally like when we breed them. Not really we just chose who gets to breed with whom. They boys are lucky and don't have to fight for the girls anymore. We haven't changed anything except who gets to be a mommy and daddy and who doesn't. Not every breed has been altered to the point where they need shoes in the field or to be pasture puffs, but some have even gotten that far, and many of the highly selected breeds like TBs, WBs and other hot competition breeds really will go lame if you ride them even in arenas without shoes.Most TB's again are field raised and pastured until they are 2. You must live sheltered if you didn't know that. Have you ever driven by TB farms mares with their foals out 24/7 yearlings and weanlings the same. Why do you think TB and Sport horse farms are so big. They let them live out in pastures before coming in to be trained/raced. TBs have great feet and can do lots barefoot. We humans just have given some of them the opportunity to survive with vet, farrier, etc where out in the wild they may not have been so lucky and its just part of natures cycle. But in nature they don't event, jump four-foot course when they could just walk around them, trot on roads... and wild-type horses avoid highly rocky and hard ground as much as possible, as it is less fertile and offers less food.Again you are mistaken as wild horse travel on whatever ground there is. They don't go OMG theres a rock I can't possibly touch it. They travel in rocky streams in the summer to cool off and on ice and snow in winter. They will jump whatever is in their way to get to what they want. And no they do not event but THEY DO have to FIGHT FOR LAND/MARES/FOOD (something our pampered stable horses never have to do) which can be more strenuous than any event course we could come up with.

Yes though it is horse by horse case though. So true. Some are perfectly fine without, many just can't cope. Some in the middle are fine either way.There are some that just weren't born with the structure to handle the type of strain eventing puts on them.(those like I said earlier would be cat food in the wild but thanks to vets shoes and science can actually become useful. So not sure why the redundancy hereSo therefore shoes are a necessary thing. But Shoes on horses aren't natural to their hoof structure. Shoes put extra force on the hoof wall itself unless you use added pads or a egg or circle bar shoe, over time shoes will actually cause damage to the horse's hoof and soundness too from separation of the laminae from the wall and the bone. Laminitis (which is what you describe with laminae separation) is to do with diet, blood sugars and stress altering the chemical makeup of the hoof. If I was talking about laminitis I would have said so. It is not the only thing that can do that to a horse's hoof wall. Shoes are only place on the outer rim of the horse's hoof. Leaving the sole to sink as weight is placed on the hoof. The hoof was meant to be a weight baring surface in entirety not just the outside hoof wall. Thus will cause laminitis like conditions to form as well. Proof in video Nothing to do with farriery, but with your horses type, diet and stress levels. Wrongly shod feet can have problems, yes, but a well-fitted shoe doesn't cause problems to the hoof.Actually yes it does horse's hooves are designed by NATURE(there's that word again) to have the whole hoof bearing the weight not just the rim. Wearing heels hurts your foot because it unnaturally lifts up your heel from the ground and puts the pressure all on the ball of your foot (hence the relief once you finally get barefoot again. Same principals. It's like saying your well fitting walking shoe is bad for you because it's adding extra weight to the bottom of your foot...Apples to Oranges because a tennis shoe fits my entire foot. A horse shoe does not.

You may say well mine wore shoes 30yrs or so never had a problem, that horse probably had feet that could survive anything and you were very blessed.MOST horses go all their lives with no issues due to shoes (admittedly some farriers are useless, but with a good one you very rarely see shoe-related problems).Actually many problems come from shoes not just from bad farriers.I don't see how a gadget designed to make your horses life easier is something that you are 'blessed' if it doesn't ruin your horses feet.Because they were designed by people can you ask your horse their opinion. No? Oh well that's good because they would probably give you an answer you wouldn't like. It was not designed for the good of the animal, most things made for animals were for either fashion, utility, or because it was believed to have helped them and when first invented there wasn't xrays or ultrasounds or anything in the like so now what was thought to be beneficial is actually harmful but now you have "TRADITIONS" set in the mindsets of teachers and older professionals who are going to pass on the failed knowledge because that was how it was done then and that is how it will be done now. Once you've set your mind on an opinion for example you're probably going to have a hard time changing your mind same with the TRADITIONAL Schools of today If shoeing was bad for a horse, it would have been realised and adapted - there's enough money in the industry that there's plenty of research funding for shoes and adaptive shoeing.It has been researched and found out but oh no what are the traditional farriers who only know how to shoe do? They'd be out of a job so instead they put up propaganda claiming what you are claiming that shoeing is they only way to go when in actuality it is not. Still horse by horse case and it is up to that person to get the facts and talk to more than just one person and get a collective opinion because one person may not actually be right even though they think they are. It may be necessary for some but do not blanket all horses into one category. like I said their are great shoes that do offer support like for navicular, ringbone, etc and that keep horses sound all year round.

Just don't shoe a horse just to shoe it though because its the thing to do or because someone says its necessary look into research and asking your vet, farrier, trainer etc and get a wide variety of opinions and see what matches your ideas and goals for the horse. This I agree with - every horse is different, and it;s worth finding out what best suits you, your horse and what you intend to do together.

Just MHO


Read more: http://www.horseforum.com/newreply.p...#ixzz1wZNsW5LC
     
    06-02-2012, 04:56 PM
  #68
Weanling
Ok, I thought I made it perfectly plain in my post that I in fact think going barefoot is great if it suits you and your horse - my last horse was barefoot. I think accusing me of being one-sided in my argument is very hypocritical, and I feel very sorry for your vet if you look upon professional education the way you imply you do. I've met people on placement who think they know better than their vet and say so loudly, and they're not fun to work with.

Basically, I'm not going to start a flame war, sorry if I offended you (as it seems from your post). Just to point out that actually I work breaking in TBs in my holidays, and have for five years, so I'm not as clueless as you seem to think. If you were actually interested in discussing the topic, I could give you some interesting facts about the prey instinct and the alteration in horses, and hoof keratin genetics, and the actual anatomical attachment of the hoof wall and the sole (which are separate structures, btw, and are designed to bear different pressures) and how the shoe can't mechanically apply enough medio-lateral pressure to do as you imply. The video is an interesting interpretation, and a valid opinion, but far from scientific fact.

Anyway, from your post I don't feel any real interest in anything I have to say, so never mind. If anyone reading this is interested and has any opinions though, do pm me - it's a really interesting topic that I enjoy discussing and have studied in depth.

One thing to leave you with though (I'm not going to post again, I assure you, I don't enjoy being insulted): if shoeing causes 'laminitis-like symptoms' as you say, why is shoeing a method of alleviation of symptoms of horses? If you claim that the specific shoes used alleviate lamintis and those alone, then why not use them on every horse? They would obviously not have the effect you describe, even if regular shoes did.

Urgh, never mind, Im talking to a brick wall.
     
    06-02-2012, 10:48 PM
  #69
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by minstrel    
Ok, I thought I made it perfectly plain in my post that I in fact think going barefoot is great if it suits you and your horse - my last horse was barefoot. I think accusing me of being one-sided in my argument is very hypocritical, and I feel very sorry for your vet if you look upon professional education the way you imply you do. I've met people on placement who think they know better than their vet and say so loudly, and they're not fun to work with.

Basically, I'm not going to start a flame war, sorry if I offended you (as it seems from your post). Just to point out that actually I work breaking in TBs in my holidays, and have for five years, so I'm not as clueless as you seem to think. If you were actually interested in discussing the topic, I could give you some interesting facts about the prey instinct and the alteration in horses, and hoof keratin genetics, and the actual anatomical attachment of the hoof wall and the sole (which are separate structures, btw, and are designed to bear different pressures) and how the shoe can't mechanically apply enough medio-lateral pressure to do as you imply. The video is an interesting interpretation, and a valid opinion, but far from scientific fact.

Anyway, from your post I don't feel any real interest in anything I have to say, so never mind. If anyone reading this is interested and has any opinions though, do pm me - it's a really interesting topic that I enjoy discussing and have studied in depth.

One thing to leave you with though (I'm not going to post again, I assure you, I don't enjoy being insulted): if shoeing causes 'laminitis-like symptoms' as you say, why is shoeing a method of alleviation of symptoms of horses? If you claim that the specific shoes used alleviate lamintis and those alone, then why not use them on every horse? They would obviously not have the effect you describe, even if regular shoes did.

Urgh, never mind, Im talking to a brick wall.
Um who's getting nasty? Only you...sorry that you can't hold an adult conversation or a proper debate.

Gee glad you're not going to post again because since you argued everything I said In my OP bolding it out, so that in fact said you disagreed whole heartedly. If you want to claim you agreed with horse by horse then why didn't you just say only that line and there would not be this discussion. I never called you any names like you stated in both posts negatively about me. Your entire last post contradicts yourself and go on spreading the one sided mindset you have. Those who attack others do it first because they aren't secure in their own selves and therefore have to "bully" others or whine that they were wronged when they weren't.

You can't provide the proof to back up your disagreements in a reply then you are standing on nothing but idle hearsay and not factual information which I had provided. My vets (which any good horse person has as not all are always available at times like me just fine and also share in finding multiple opinions and being PROGRESSIVE in learning all that you can. So If you go do everything only one person tells you to do that's what is defined as closed mindedness. Not seeking knowledge from many sources is a poor lack of ones personal self gain and wont lead you very far.

And saying you're not going to respond only shows further immaturity and lack of knowledge.

But im just talking to a computer screen that you said you wont even read...
     
    06-03-2012, 05:11 PM
  #70
Foal
Wow love it when things get heated so much more entertaining than a calm discussion.

Ok just going to add some things, that I thought of. I read the farriers handbook once, a very old edition, and even almost 80 years ago, they knew about the mechanics of a hoof, ie how hoof expands and contracts, weight bearing surfaces etc etc. They were aware of all this and also what shoeing can cause.. Farriers arnt ignorant of this, mostly.

I recently got to work with some of the most amazing farriers I ever met http://www.facebook.com/CairoFarrier we treated every kind of bad shoeing job tht you can't even imagine. Horses would come in dead lame and walk away 80% sound returning to full soundness with in the week. Something that no matter how good the trimmer a barefoot specialist couldnt have achieved.

There is no blanket rule for horses, you have to what's best for the individual horse. Most honest farriers will tel, you in a perfect world a hoof would be better unshod, worlds not perfect though. Good shoeing will help prevent lameness with the least amount of damage to the hoof, and in some cases will be a horses only chance of achieving soundness...

Just my thoughts...
CJ82Sky likes this.
     

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