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another banned

This is a discussion on another banned within the Gaited Horses forums, part of the Horse Breeds category

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        08-30-2012, 09:14 AM
      #11
    Super Moderator
    abuse in showing

    It is a fact that the TW's are getting all the media attention in what is an abuse of horses to produce an unnatural flashy action. All saddleseat horses that are strapped up and have elongated feet are suffering as are horses ridden in Rolkurr and peanut rollers. There is no way to justify any of it. Lets get horses back to performing in their natural beautiful paces.
    Judges carry a huge responsibility. We don't have saddleseat in the UK in competition but there has long been a trend there for show condition to be 'overweight' which has meant that a lot of show horses suffer from laminitis and other obesity related problems. A lot of young horses in lead line classes looked like mature horses at a year old they were so 'forced' and as a result suffered terrible joint problems as they got older (OCD), there was always outcry about it yet if you took a young horse that looked like a young horse into a show class you were never going to win. Things are improving but it takes a strong public voice to do it & judges who are not afraid to change things
    Emm - A friend of mine had an imported TW in the UK some years ago and he only 'gaited' under saddle when he got excited. She used to jump him - something he really loved doing but he would often suddenly start gaiting in the ring as he got so excited about it all so she gave up and went into endurance riding with him which he was great at
         
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        08-30-2012, 09:38 AM
      #12
    Weanling
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by EmmJayCee    
    I am the proud owner of a Tennessee Walker. He's barefoot, and naturally gaited--although I haven't figured out how to get him to gait under saddle as we're just starting out and we're bitless. However, he does gait in pasture, and it's so beautiful it starts an ache in the back of my throat and makes me want to cry. He does it because it comes naturally to him and he's feeling good. I'll never understand some people's need to change that natural gait, of the attitude that abuse to achieve it is alright.
    You will find that many Walkers gait best when ridden in contact. As a rider you don't want a horse that gaits "when he's feeling best." You want a horse to gait when you tell him to gait. Ditto for canter, stop, turn, etc.

    Be very wary of "natural" when applied to horses. Horses have been domesticated for something like 12,000 years and gaited horses have been selectively bred for at least several hundred (and maybe several millennia). As such they are man-made animals. While the Big Lick, the JV Big Lick, rollkur, peannut rolling, etc. are abominations that does not mean that saddles, bits, spurs, shoes, etc. (which are all "unnatural") are equally abominable.

    It's probably quite true that the BL horses have been the 1%ers of the TWH world. They are also the source for the bulk of TWH breeding stock over the past 50 years or so. That, IMO, has grossly damaged the genetic stock of the TWH, meaning another caution about "natural" in the TWH.

    The BL was created in the early '50s to reinvigorate an moribund TWH industry. After WWII autos, motorcycles, etc. rapidly replaced the TWH as a mode of transport in the South. The great drought of 1948-49 essentially ended animal based agriculture in TN (it was cheaper to run a tractor than maintain a team; and the tractor could do more work in a day). Horses were dumped in HUGE numbers. Trainers and instructors were rapidly becoming obsolete. Then Talk of the Town won the Celebration three times, exciting the crowd with his "big lick" (note the lack of capitalization, here). So the trainers turned to the ASB world and imported the devices that could allow any horse to do a "Big Lick" gait. That put bums in seats and money in the till. It also opened the door to the abuses we see today.

    Now you have three generations of human and a couple of dozen generations of horses bred for this process. What happens to those humans and those horses if the process is banned? Few of the zealots who have written on this consider those consequences. Or, if they do, they write of the humans as a "who cares; so what?" Not much about the horses, though, who are pretty much unfit for much else.

    I don't think the TWHBEA as a whole has been banned from the Celebration and the NWHA has certainly NOT taken over. The Celebration is committed to the maintenance of a "humane" BL program. IMO this is an impossibility, but there it is.

    There are a lot of dark clouds on the horizon for the Walking Horse world. If there is a silver lining it's that the tyranny of the BL might have been broken and the excessive influence of a few people in Middle TN has been dramatically reduced. But we won't know that for at least another 24 months.

    G.
         
        08-30-2012, 09:42 AM
      #13
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jaydee    
    Emm - A friend of mine had an imported TW in the UK some years ago and he only 'gaited' under saddle when he got excited. She used to jump him - something he really loved doing but he would often suddenly start gaiting in the ring as he got so excited about it all so she gave up and went into endurance riding with him which he was great at
    Wowza!! I can't even begin to imagine the cost of importing a horse.
         
        08-30-2012, 09:45 AM
      #14
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Guilherme    
    You will find that many Walkers gait best when ridden in contact. As a rider you don't want a horse that gaits "when he's feeling best." You want a horse to gait when you tell him to gait. Ditto for canter, stop, turn, etc.

    Be very wary of "natural" when applied to horses. Horses have been domesticated for something like 12,000 years and gaited horses have been selectively bred for at least several hundred (and maybe several millennia). As such they are man-made animals. While the Big Lick, the JV Big Lick, rollkur, peannut rolling, etc. are abominations that does not mean that saddles, bits, spurs, shoes, etc. (which are all "unnatural") are equally abominable.

    It's probably quite true that the BL horses have been the 1%ers of the TWH world. They are also the source for the bulk of TWH breeding stock over the past 50 years or so. That, IMO, has grossly damaged the genetic stock of the TWH, meaning another caution about "natural" in the TWH.

    The BL was created in the early '50s to reinvigorate an moribund TWH industry. After WWII autos, motorcycles, etc. rapidly replaced the TWH as a mode of transport in the South. The great drought of 1948-49 essentially ended animal based agriculture in TN (it was cheaper to run a tractor than maintain a team; and the tractor could do more work in a day). Horses were dumped in HUGE numbers. Trainers and instructors were rapidly becoming obsolete. Then Talk of the Town won the Celebration three times, exciting the crowd with his "big lick" (note the lack of capitalization, here). So the trainers turned to the ASB world and imported the devices that could allow any horse to do a "Big Lick" gait. That put bums in seats and money in the till. It also opened the door to the abuses we see today.

    Now you have three generations of human and a couple of dozen generations of horses bred for this process. What happens to those humans and those horses if the process is banned? Few of the zealots who have written on this consider those consequences. Or, if they do, they write of the humans as a "who cares; so what?" Not much about the horses, though, who are pretty much unfit for much else.

    I don't think the TWHBEA as a whole has been banned from the Celebration and the NWHA has certainly NOT taken over. The Celebration is committed to the maintenance of a "humane" BL program. IMO this is an impossibility, but there it is.

    There are a lot of dark clouds on the horizon for the Walking Horse world. If there is a silver lining it's that the tyranny of the BL might have been broken and the excessive influence of a few people in Middle TN has been dramatically reduced. But we won't know that for at least another 24 months.

    G.
    Hee, I'm not a zealot. I just think for what I'm wanting to do with him that bitless will be just fine. I'm a "toodler", I just want to toodle around and enjoy him. If he gaits, wonderful, if not, I don't mind, and do believe with a little persistence he will---I've seen walkers gait in halters, it's just a matter of showing them what you want. He's got a great walk, and goes all the way up to canter and it's nice and smooth. He's here as long as he lives, and I can say the nature of a walker can't be beat. Laid back, easy going, even tempered, and quick to try to find the right answer. It's night and day working with him and our quarter horse who is a monkey/camel in horsey clothing. :)
    jaydee likes this.
         
        08-30-2012, 09:53 AM
      #15
    Super Moderator
    What is natura

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Guilherme    
    You will find that many Walkers gait best when ridden in contact. As a rider you don't want a horse that gaits "when he's feeling best." You want a horse to gait when you tell him to gait. Ditto for canter, stop, turn, etc.

    Be very wary of "natural" when applied to horses. Horses have been domesticated for something like 12,000 years and gaited horses have been selectively bred for at least several hundred (and maybe several millennia). As such they are man-made animals. While the Big Lick, the JV Big Lick, rollkur, peannut rolling, etc. are abominations that does not mean that saddles, bits, spurs, shoes, etc. (which are all "unnatural") are equally abominable.

    It's probably quite true that the BL horses have been the 1%ers of the TWH world. They are also the source for the bulk of TWH breeding stock over the past 50 years or so. That, IMO, has grossly damaged the genetic stock of the TWH, meaning another caution about "natural" in the TWH.

    The BL was created in the early '50s to reinvigorate an moribund TWH industry. After WWII autos, motorcycles, etc. rapidly replaced the TWH as a mode of transport in the South. The great drought of 1948-49 essentially ended animal based agriculture in TN (it was cheaper to run a tractor than maintain a team; and the tractor could do more work in a day). Horses were dumped in HUGE numbers. Trainers and instructors were rapidly becoming obsolete. Then Talk of the Town won the Celebration three times, exciting the crowd with his "big lick" (note the lack of capitalization, here). So the trainers turned to the ASB world and imported the devices that could allow any horse to do a "Big Lick" gait. That put bums in seats and money in the till. It also opened the door to the abuses we see today.

    Now you have three generations of human and a couple of dozen generations of horses bred for this process. What happens to those humans and those horses if the process is banned? Few of the zealots who have written on this consider those consequences. Or, if they do, they write of the humans as a "who cares; so what?" Not much about the horses, though, who are pretty much unfit for much else.

    I don't think the TWHBEA as a whole has been banned from the Celebration and the NWHA has certainly NOT taken over. The Celebration is committed to the maintenance of a "humane" BL program. IMO this is an impossibility, but there it is.

    There are a lot of dark clouds on the horizon for the Walking Horse world. If there is a silver lining it's that the tyranny of the BL might have been broken and the excessive influence of a few people in Middle TN has been dramatically reduced. But we won't know that for at least another 24 months.

    G.
    I have to agree with you when it comes to people trying to force a horse that has had all the 'natural' bred out of it hundreds of years ago - the TB is a perfect example of this. An OTTB especially has no idea how to be a natural horse and throwing it in at the 'deep end' is totally cruel. Owners that keep a horse 'naturally' because it makes then feel 'warm & fuzzy' inside are not thinking about whats best for the horse if its not used to that sort of life. If I give my horses the choice to come into the barn or stay outside when its bad weather or hot and biting bugs everywhere they will always come into the barn, in fact they would knock me over in the rush.
    As for people losing out I don't agree - making money out of an animals suffering is not justified
    There is no reason why these horses can't continue to be shown in their natural state. We don't have these classes in the UK yet we still have probably more straight showing classes and people making money out of it. Sometimes there has to be change.
         
        08-30-2012, 10:13 AM
      #16
    Green Broke
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Guilherme    
    You will find that many Walkers gait best when ridden in contact. As a rider you don't want a horse that gaits "when he's feeling best." You want a horse to gait when you tell him to gait. Ditto for canter, stop, turn, etc.

    Be very wary of "natural" when applied to horses. Horses have been domesticated for something like 12,000 years and gaited horses have been selectively bred for at least several hundred (and maybe several millennia). As such they are man-made animals. While the Big Lick, the JV Big Lick, rollkur, peannut rolling, etc. are abominations that does not mean that saddles, bits, spurs, shoes, etc. (which are all "unnatural") are equally abominable.

    It's probably quite true that the BL horses have been the 1%ers of the TWH world. They are also the source for the bulk of TWH breeding stock over the past 50 years or so. That, IMO, has grossly damaged the genetic stock of the TWH, meaning another caution about "natural" in the TWH.

    The BL was created in the early '50s to reinvigorate an moribund TWH industry. After WWII autos, motorcycles, etc. rapidly replaced the TWH as a mode of transport in the South. The great drought of 1948-49 essentially ended animal based agriculture in TN (it was cheaper to run a tractor than maintain a team; and the tractor could do more work in a day). Horses were dumped in HUGE numbers. Trainers and instructors were rapidly becoming obsolete. Then Talk of the Town won the Celebration three times, exciting the crowd with his "big lick" (note the lack of capitalization, here). So the trainers turned to the ASB world and imported the devices that could allow any horse to do a "Big Lick" gait. That put bums in seats and money in the till. It also opened the door to the abuses we see today.

    Now you have three generations of human and a couple of dozen generations of horses bred for this process. What happens to those humans and those horses if the process is banned? Few of the zealots who have written on this consider those consequences. Or, if they do, they write of the humans as a "who cares; so what?" Not much about the horses, though, who are pretty much unfit for much else.

    I don't think the TWHBEA as a whole has been banned from the Celebration and the NWHA has certainly NOT taken over. The Celebration is committed to the maintenance of a "humane" BL program. IMO this is an impossibility, but there it is.

    There are a lot of dark clouds on the horizon for the Walking Horse world. If there is a silver lining it's that the tyranny of the BL might have been broken and the excessive influence of a few people in Middle TN has been dramatically reduced. But we won't know that for at least another 24 months.

    G.
    I truly don't care what happens to the people, they'll either change with the times (if indeed the wind has shifted) or they'll be out of horses. That's their problem and not mine or anyone elses. I just would like to see them back to breeding for a true gait instead of pacers they can toss on stacks.

    I'm not all that worried about the horses either. I've seen person after person trail riding walkers that are pacing like mad with a huge smile on their faces. Then there's the pasture ornament crowd who just like looking out their window and watching their horses and never or rarely ride. Basically the majority of walker owners don't pay attention to what is happening in the show world and so their buying habits wont change.
         
        08-30-2012, 10:36 AM
      #17
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Darrin    
    I truly don't care what happens to the people, they'll either change with the times (if indeed the wind has shifted) or they'll be out of horses. That's their problem and not mine or anyone elses. I just would like to see them back to breeding for a true gait instead of pacers they can toss on stacks.

    I'm not all that worried about the horses either. I've seen person after person trail riding walkers that are pacing like mad with a huge smile on their faces. Then there's the pasture ornament crowd who just like looking out their window and watching their horses and never or rarely ride. Basically the majority of walker owners don't pay attention to what is happening in the show world and so their buying habits wont change.

    That's me to a "t". I just want to enjoy my horses, give them a good life, and don't give a flying fig what's going on in shows. Nothing wrong with shows in general, it's just not my thing. :)
         
        08-30-2012, 11:26 AM
      #18
    Super Moderator
    fashions

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Darrin    
    I truly don't care what happens to the people, they'll either change with the times (if indeed the wind has shifted) or they'll be out of horses. That's their problem and not mine or anyone elses. I just would like to see them back to breeding for a true gait instead of pacers they can toss on stacks.

    I'm not all that worried about the horses either. I've seen person after person trail riding walkers that are pacing like mad with a huge smile on their faces. Then there's the pasture ornament crowd who just like looking out their window and watching their horses and never or rarely ride. Basically the majority of walker owners don't pay attention to what is happening in the show world and so their buying habits wont change.
    In the long run it would be better for horses. A lot of these animals trained to have unnatural positions are so robotised that retraining them is really hard - they are 'one trick ponies' so life after the showring is sometimes not an option for them and they land in a kill pen.
    Showing needs to be about more than going round and round a ring, turning on the rail and going round and round the other way
    I don't see competitions as a bad thing at all and horses have evolved and been bred to be working animals. There is nothing wrong with saddles & bridles or stabling if its done properly. People who think that keeping a horse on a tiny patch of scrub with a dozen other horses & a field shelter are somehow simulating a natural herd are crazy. Horses in the 'wild' had acres and acres of land to roam on and they didn't have geldings running with mares. In a recent study in the UK over 60% of all injuries involving a need for a vet and insurance claims occured in the field
    Sorry going off track there but change has to happen for their to be progress
         
        08-30-2012, 12:00 PM
      #19
    Foal
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jaydee    
    In the long run it would be better for horses. A lot of these animals trained to have unnatural positions are so robotised that retraining them is really hard - they are 'one trick ponies' so life after the showring is sometimes not an option for them and they land in a kill pen.
    Showing needs to be about more than going round and round a ring, turning on the rail and going round and round the other way
    I don't see competitions as a bad thing at all and horses have evolved and been bred to be working animals. There is nothing wrong with saddles & bridles or stabling if its done properly. People who think that keeping a horse on a tiny patch of scrub with a dozen other horses & a field shelter are somehow simulating a natural herd are crazy. Horses in the 'wild' had acres and acres of land to roam on and they didn't have geldings running with mares. In a recent study in the UK over 60% of all injuries involving a need for a vet and insurance claims occured in the field
    Sorry going off track there but change has to happen for their to be progress
    I agree. There's no way I can simulate a wild environment as our land is just 6 1/2 acres of pasture (with woods & a pond) and it's just our two happy geldings. BUT, I do think they've got a good quality of life and are generally happy, affable fellows who are tickled to see me coming and want to hang around for good scratchings. I'd rather see them where they are now as stalled with a small turnout. We've not had any injuries so far and hope we don't. They're pretty settled in who is the boss and get along well. Now, if I were to introduce another horse into their pasture it would be a different story as they'd all have to start over in establishing their pecking order.
         
        08-30-2012, 12:21 PM
      #20
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by EmmJayCee    
    I agree. There's no way I can simulate a wild environment as our land is just 6 1/2 acres of pasture (with woods & a pond) and it's just our two happy geldings. BUT, I do think they've got a good quality of life and are generally happy, affable fellows who are tickled to see me coming and want to hang around for good scratchings. I'd rather see them where they are now as stalled with a small turnout. We've not had any injuries so far and hope we don't. They're pretty settled in who is the boss and get along well. Now, if I were to introduce another horse into their pasture it would be a different story as they'd all have to start over in establishing their pecking order.
    Emm - your horses no way resemble the sort of animals I'm referring too, there are places that would put 10 or more on that land you have and call it 'natural'. They can't get out of the way of each other and all the time new horses come and go with the fights that go along with it. There isn't enough grazing so they have to compete with each other for that & whatever hay that gets thrown in and there isn't enough shelter so the ones at the bottom of the heap are shoved out. Their owners call by once a day to see them - if they're lucky and the rest of the time they are left to get on with it
    Your horses have a very good life.
         

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