First of all, I am having a lot of trouble with this quote thing! Hopefully this works. I hope I didn't miss anything either.
[QUOTE=Gaited07] So if the horse is pacing with a hollow back, stepping pace with slightly less and etc., why wouldn't you want a horse rounded or slightly rounded to put the into the right frame to gait properly? [QUOTE]
I agree completely with you in using collection here. We did that with my horse actually. She used to be too pacey and high headed and now her gait is smooth and if anything she'll break into a trot, not a stepping pace. I never said collection couldn't be used to improve or get the desired gait, but say someone wants the stepping pace/etc, and the horse is already in the right frame and is gaiting naturally. Why would you want to get more collection and lose the gait? I hope that makes sense.
See again what I quoted here from that book. The "wiring" of the gaited horse has a lot to do with this.
"Easy -gaited horses do not reach the degree of roundness necessary for collected trot work, let alone the that needed for a correct piaffe. Because the easy gaits require a type of elasticity in the back that is reduced when there is much tension in the ligament cable system (the same elasticity that allows non-gaited foals to do easy gaits for a short time in their lives), gaited horses do most of their gaits in a neutral to somewhat hollow position.
Despite the arched necks and high heads you may see in some gaited horses, very few of them work their bodies in more than a slightly rounded neutral position. To test the degree of true collection possible in any particular gait, ride a gaited horse in his gait. Then teach him to round his body correctly, creating a bascule in his back, and working sustained downward flexion at the lumbosacral junction in a truly collected position. As he becomes more round, he will generally lose his easy gait and start trotting."
[QUOTE=Gaited07]So what's the "true dressage sense" ??? Again, dressage is TRAINING. Not the same foot print will work with all but the baseline is the same when applied to the individual horse and their abilities. [QUOTE]
I copied and pasted this from another lady. I think what she means is you're not going to get the same level of collection from a gaited horse in an intermediate gait as you are a non-gaited horse in regular gaits. I do agree with you though. Of course classical dressage can be used with any horse! Non-gaited or otherwise. ;)
[QUOTE=Gaited07] I agree with this statement because that is the belief of MOST gaited (and non) trainers/handlers. Bits with mile long shanks to give a false collection and pads, chains and etc to give lift in the frontend and to sit all the way back so the horse reaches with his hindend to get under his rider. [QUOTE]
I agree with you.
[QUOITE=Gaited07] The horse needs to engage the hindquarters TO the bit by just closing hands on the reins (half halts) to let the horses hindquarters drive into the bit. [QUOTE]
This is exactly what my instructor taught me to do with my mare. Not what the lady said.
[QUOTE=Gaited07]As in any training, you use what works with your horse and not every horse will be VERY ROUNDED in order to be collected. Its teaching your horse to drive from the hindquarters verse leading with the forequarters. [QUOTE]
I think I have a different definition of "true" collection than you do... What I mean by it is not CORRECT collection, but full blown collection that dressage horses or reiners or whatever are in when they work. At least that's how I learned. And my definition of "containment" is what my horse is in when in her running walk. She isn't in true collection because she can't gait that way, but she is definitely contained. She has a huge overstride, too. :)
[QUOTE=Gaited07]slightly rounded or rounded back is engaging the hindquarters and actually a neutral has SOME drive from the hindend verse a hallowed back horse with the drive from the front end.
More and more gaited horse people are practicing the classical sense of training of their horses today with raving reviews and success. Do some research ;)
I've been practicing classical dressage with my gaited horses and LOVE the results! [QUOTE]
Of course it has SOME drive, which would mean they are contained, but they aren't in "true" collection, are they? My main point was that a horse carries itself differently and can not be as collected than if they are in a canter or walk. That's why it makes sense to start off from a walk so you can have them "set up" and collected ALREADY. All lot of horses will just fumble around and do strange things if you start from an intermediate gait, including mine. Of course when a horse is trained thoroughly to start off in a correct canter consistently then you can move on and do it from a gait.
[QUOTE=Gaited07] Above is some ofter my thoughts on the matter. I've been training and working gaited horses since the early 70's and seen and done a lot lol but with education, trial and error have found the most successful way to work with gaited horses and achieve the correct gait by using dressage techniques. [QUOTE]
I highly respect you for your experience. I am obviously not even close to you experience wise, but this isn't just an "IMO" here. I have heard and read this from more than one trainer, one being my riding instructor with 50 years oof experience, and who has won the World Championship (in western pleasure, I believe).
I hope I clarified myself. I am not REMOTELY against collection or classical dressage, ect, for gaited horses. All I am saying is that gaited horses carry themselves differently in an intermediate gait than the canter or any other non-intermediate gaits. That's why it helps so much to start off from a walk and not a gait. :)
**I must not forget to thank the difficult horses, who made my life miserable, but who were better teachers than the well-behaved school horses who raised no problems.**