Chains around frontlegs? What for? How? :) - Page 6

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Chains around frontlegs? What for? How? :)

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    12-15-2008, 12:12 AM
I am not sure either why it is called "Big Lick" but if I had to guess it would be because of the extreme bobbing of the head. It kinda looks like they are licking a giant popsicle or something. ????
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    12-15-2008, 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by Spyder    
Not sure why it is called the big lick but read on...

History of the "Big Lick"

How much is 1 ounce?

I've heard this ''the horse is xxxlb the chain weighs xx, compare with a human on xxx and a watch on xx'' several times and I just don't get what the size has to do with anything.. the horses are still as sensetive.

When I got new tires on my car, they adjusted the balance in them with 25g. 25g on a 1.5 ton car really sounds silly, but it still is important. Just saying size and weight doesn't really matter.

But I still can't believe a light bracelet can do any harm. Maybe a chain would move and hit differently in more harsh points.. But I don't think it at that weight.

How about telling us the name of the book?
Except for martingales I rather dislike draw reins and other gear like them to tie the horses heads down. I believe some can be used in an ok way, but I don't see why they would be needed if they were.

I'm not against''harsh'' bits tho (it surprises people) since bits are means of communication and f.x. Curbs works way different than snaffles and gives other cues.


I can't imagine it that way, but sure,, things have gotten weirder names with strange reasons :P
    12-15-2008, 01:50 AM
I don't really associate with TWHs or know much about them, so I can't comment. Morgans can be gaited, but they aren't popular enough to have classes for them at the large shows.

"Walk-Trotters" are under 11 year old junior exhibitors at the Morgan shows, they just walk and trot. I was mentioning them to point out that if someone who doesn't really know what their doing or understand it can keep the horse collected and the horse still have that high cadence to his movement, then not only are the horses extremely even tempered, but it must be a natural thing, because if it didn't come naturally they wouldn't do it unless they were forced.. and the idea is that a 9 year old probably couldn't force a horse to do something it wasn't fond of.

Anyway, I'm sorry we got mixed up, I know almost nothing of TWHs. Pictures don't do it justice, and here's a world champion park horse playing in the snow. There's no way he has any type of padded shoe on because he would pull it (1) and its winter, and everyone takes their shoes down in the winter, at least most people (2)... He may have normal snow shoes on..

I'm telling you its all natural, and that "blowing" attitude he's got is him showing off and saying look at me. When horses do that at shows, people criticize that they are scared, and because they look a little bug eyed their scared. Does this horse look scared to you? He is so beautiful.

(they have him playing in the snow in the first half and then under saddle at the world championship I believe)

The leather straps provide the same purpose as chains or anything else would, leather just doesn't make noise and is lighter. They give something for the horse to pull against.

How much is 1 ounce?

I've heard this ''the horse is xxxlb the chain weighs xx, compare with a human on xxx and a watch on xx'' several times and I just don't get what the size has to do with anything.. the horses are still as sensetive.

When I got new tires on my car, they adjusted the balance in them with 25g. 25g on a 1.5 ton car really sounds silly, but it still is important. Just saying size and weight doesn't really matter.

But I still can't believe a light bracelet can do any harm. Maybe a chain would move and hit differently in more harsh points.. But I don't think it at that weight.
They are sensitive in some ways and not in others. The chains to them feel so light (but jingle and make their presence) between .17Kg and .23kG to say a 544kG animal? Literally making 0.0367% of their body weight.

So a bracelet weighs an average of what 35g (or about an ounce)? And the average person weighs 150lbs or 70kg? That makes a bracelet literally 0.044% of our body weight, and therefore the percentage of an average bracelet is less than the average chain for a horse in training. So imagine how light it feels? Also, horses have hair where the chain would hit, and it should be fastened to it does hit their coronary band (loose enough to jingle, but not too loose to come near the coronary band or to get stuck around the top of the hoof).

Human bracelets are generally worn a lot longer than a horse is intended to wear its chains (only when working an hour or less a day 5-7 days a week or less).

Anyways... watch that video! Especially anyone who is still in doubt.
    12-15-2008, 02:05 AM
It is not the weight of the chain that makes it cruel anyway (up to a point). The chains that weigh only a couple of ounces (56 grams) are made cruel by soring the horse before the chains are applied. Think of wearing a watch on a wrist that you had burned badly. Although there are some trainers that use chains that weigh up to a pound (.45 kg).
    12-15-2008, 02:19 AM
Drop_your_reins. That is a morgan??? Goood LORD!!! Be still my Saddlebred Heart!!

I would add to this, but you seem to have it well handled, drop.
    12-15-2008, 03:42 AM
Smrobs, I am not speaking of trainers who use them for soring, their intended use should not hurt a horse at all. I have never seen or heard of any saddleseat trainers who practice soring.. If you read any of my other replies, you'd see that I do not endorse soring, and in all honesty I wouldn't even know how to sore a horse if I tried. The way I (and any other saddleseat trainers or riders that I know of) use chains they are not cruel or intended to be used in a cruel or inhumane way.

LadyDreamer, yup that's Centerpiece. I just found that when I was looking for something else, I thought I'd add it in for effect, he certainly is breathtaking isn't he? I'm sure he has saddlebred blood in him, way back before DNA-ing when people outcrossed a lot. :P (Though the saddlebreds took from the Morgans too, when their breed registry was in its foundation.. so I guess its even right?)
    12-15-2008, 11:28 AM
I know horses blows in a ''show off'' attitude to (mainly stallions of course x) and of just excitement as well. Sometimes in shows it really does look like they're scared, and I think they are, but other times it's obvious it's just excitement.

As long as those awful shoes or other gear like that are used I won't judge anything too much. I don't know it too well.
If you had to start using tiedowns in dressage, for example, like you have to use those shoes in the big lick, I'd think dressage was even more out of it's mind as well. I can't see anything like that on the vids you show so I'm not going to judge it as something cruel and I can accept that the high legs and moves might be natural.

I can't believe those seats are the best ways to ride the horse, pushing the cantle of the saddle dow in it's back in every step. :P Far from as bad as padded shoes, soring etc tho. I can live with it. But can you explain why the riders have to sit so weird? How does it help the horse move? It's just like putting a way ugly pose on the human when the horse is so pretty :P (Yes I think it's pretty, not convinced of healthy yet when you add the weight of the rider on those long backs, but it's pretty in many of the shows I've watched on youtube. And there is lots of things I doubt is healthy for the horse, in pretty much all diciplines, so don't feel offended by that.)

I still don't buy the whole thing with comparing the weight of the chains with the weight of the horse in % etc because size and weight doesn't have anything to do with sensetivity, and the horses legs are delicate and sensetive to added weight.
Still not saying light chains are cruel, I doubt it's any worse than polowraps or protectiv boots in weight, but I don't buy the comparision with the horses size. It sound too much like what I heard when I first started to ride: ''He's so big, a little whipping won't hurt him''.. Size just doesn't matter in some cases.

Anyway, even tho saddleseat looks weird to me, as I havn't seen much of it, it wasn't that but the 'big lick' I dislike so much by just watching it. I'm sorry for the confusement and I'm not going to say all saddleseat is bad or that the training has to be unatural and cruel.
    12-15-2008, 03:32 PM
The idea is to have as light of a seat as possible. That video is a poor demonstration of what the equitation should look like (not that she is a poor rider or her equiatation is poor) but they are riding victory passes.. The rider is much less concerned with themselves and trying keep the obviously excited horse in check... It's not easy to do, I can only imagine how difficult it is with a big stallion like Centerpiece.

I'm not sure why the saddles force you so far back, but I think it has something to do with being as light as possible on the horse's back and giving the horse as much room as possible in the front. It is also for looks, it looks elegant and this is a traditional sport, people keep as much as the "tradition" part as possible. They want to recreate a Sunday Plantation horse, which is where the discipline originated.
The hands should be placed wherever the horses head falls naturally, obviously higher headsets are appropriate, but lower headsets can show.
The elbows should remain close to the chest, the hands should be tipped at a slight angle. The legs should come down relatively straight and cling to the horse's barrel. The heels should be down, and the legs should be as still as possible, with subtle direction being communicated through calf muscles.

Morgan shows have a variety of disciplines and all of them are equally competitive. We have dressage, Carriage driving, Hunter/Jumper, Hunter Pleasure, Western Pleasure, Saddleseat, In-Hand, etc. etc. That most trainers that are saddleseat oriented take a horse who isn't suitable and sell them as such and such a prospect. They don't force the horse to do something it doesn't want to do. Which is why, I think, I have yet to find a saddleseat Morgan who is scared, or one who doesn't love their job!
    12-15-2008, 07:05 PM
The "Big Lick" as well as the practice of Soring is Breed Specific, no dicipline specific. Out of all the breeds that compete in Saddleseat, ONE breed sores, and that ONE breed gives the rest of the breeds of the dicipline a bad reputation.

Soring is BREED specific, NOT DICIPLINE specific.

That said....

Our horses are bred to have that "Look at me" or "I'm the latest TV show personality!"
Look, he is on bare ground. He is not stepping out of anything, like high grass, or snow. He has nothing there to "disturb" his legs.
The same colt, five minutes before. It is all about timing.
Look where his neck sits. As you can see, he's not stirred up. This colt is actually one of the most laid back horses. It is HARD to get him wound up.

Horses like the Morgan and the American Saddlebred are bred to have a higher head and neck placement than the other breeds. They were bred to be able to lift their legs high. They are TRAINED to react a certain way to stimulus. They aren't scared. A scared horse runs away. Trust me, I have seen many a Saddlebred do a spin a QH reiner would be jealous of when they "suddenly" see something they are scared of and run. You see it often at the Saddlebred Breed Sale with the young horses. The end of the ring is big and scary. However once the horses get down there and go down there once or twice, they are no longer hesitant.
Arabians have a higher head carriage than others and "motion", but to a lesser degree than Saddlebreds or Morgans. Then you have the Arab/Saddlebred Cross, the National Show Horse.
None of those breeds are "Gaited". American Saddlebreds have the genetic capability to learn how to rack, but there are very FEW naturally gaited Saddlebreds.

The true gaited breeds, (rockies, TWHs etc) are not supposed to have that very high neck carriage, and they are not supposed to have that very extreme action. They should have relatively high action, and a higher head than, say, a QH, but they shouldn't try to emulate the Saddlebred motion. At best they should go level. But with their necks being a little more "forward" they shouldn't go more. I think that might just be me though.

I have stolen this from a website that I visit often. This is what one of the posters said about Saddleseat.
Someone once said to me that a horse is at its most beautiful when something spooks it. Not the "whirl around and hightail it outta here" spook, but the kind of spook when they do that highly collected bounce-trot, stick their head up, arch their neck, flip their tail up over their back and snort.
EVERY horse does this - not just Saddlebreds. And isn't it perty?!
Saddle Seat tries to emulate that moment, but not by truly spooking the horse - by TRAINING it. We slowly expose the horse to things that get its heart pumping a bit faster, but not scare it out of its mind. A little bit of noise from a plastic bag, maybe some dirt rattling in an empty soda bottle, a whistle or some clapping. Teach it to look, to listen, to learn - and teach it to discover its own strength and courage, and find PRIDE in that strength and courage.
Eventually you end up with a horse who seeks out the stimulus, because with it comes the self-gratification of knowing how beautiful, brave and strong they are. They do not lose their minds. In fact, they have INCREDIBLE minds.
A barrel horse can barely contain itself, waiting to charge down that chute into the ring. That is FOCUSED energy... the rider is not afraid, the horse is not afraid - the horse is ready, willing and completely under control, despite how it looks. That is what a Saddle Seat horse is.
I was thinking about the "You are so far back you have to be hurting your horse." when I was riding my mare a couple weeks ago. When I ride, I post. I don't SLAM into their backs. I move with the horse, and let him or her push me out as far as his stride requires, and even when I am just sitting there at the walk, I am not digging into their backs with my rear. I am sitting there, moving with them, and preparing them for the next thing I am going to ask.
    12-15-2008, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Zab    
And I still dislike pretty much all ''show off'' diciplines, much thanks to what I've learnt from dressge - which is said to be ''for the horse'' to strengthen then. I don't like what that has become thanks to the competition and hunt for ribbons, even tho it can still be done in a good way and still serve the original purpose to strenthen the horse. What I've seen of ther show off diciplines, they're not much better when it comes to the show ring.

I agree, I think all "showing off" disciplines as you call them ultimately end up being bad for the horse. I like classical/Spanish dressage but if it became more popular it would become corrupt just like German dressage has.

Drop, of course H/J horses are going to have more injuries; their legs take a lot more impact. But forcing a horse to jump when it doesn't want to is even harder than forcing it to lift its legs high or do a half-pass, and dangerous besides.

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