Heeeeeeeeeelp!! - Page 3
   

       The Horse Forum > Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics > Horse Breeds > Gaited Horses

Heeeeeeeeeelp!!

This is a discussion on Heeeeeeeeeelp!! within the Gaited Horses forums, part of the Horse Breeds category

    Like Tree11Likes

     
    LinkBack Thread Tools
        06-02-2013, 05:11 PM
      #21
    Weanling
    "But to confide in someone or rely on them is to trust them. You can not have a confident horse with out them trusting you as the leader.. you must trust the leader to lead you down the correct path- to keep you safe- right or am I wrong again?" Yes,

    You are confusing trust with training. Any mammal, other than a human, is incapable of trust. Until, you conquer the difference, training mammals is a how lot more difficult.

    They do not trust you as a leader, you train them to allow you to lead. BIG difference.
    toto likes this.
         
    Sponsored Links
    Advertisement
     
        06-02-2013, 09:24 PM
      #22
    Weanling
    Now the bad news. A horse like this will have ulcers. 99.9% chance, due to the nervousness. And once you train the horse to not be nervous outwardly, it will be even more nervous inwardly.

    Prevention and treatment can be the same. I suggest immediately start her on U-7 from Finish Line and continue the maintenance dose as long as she is ridden. If she has a lay off, you can discontinue it's use, but restart it about 30 days before starting the riding again.

    Use only low protein feed, like very low. No whole kernel grains at all. Preferably pelletizedgrains. NO corn of any kind. As much grass as possible. If you need to put on weight, use high fat feeds.
         
        06-02-2013, 11:30 PM
      #23
    Banned
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bbsmfg3    
    Now the bad news. A horse like this will have ulcers. 99.9% chance, due to the nervousness. And once you train the horse to not be nervous outwardly, it will be even more nervous inwardly.

    Prevention and treatment can be the same. I suggest immediately start her on U-7 from Finish Line and continue the maintenance dose as long as she is ridden. If she has a lay off, you can discontinue it's use, but restart it about 30 days before starting the riding again.

    Use only low protein feed, like very low. No whole kernel grains at all. Preferably pelletizedgrains. NO corn of any kind. As much grass as possible. If you need to put on weight, use high fat feeds.
    Can you state fact to back up your theory? Id like to read into this sort of thing- links are welcomed!

    Unless signs of ulcers are present treatin them can cause bigger problems.. if it aint broke don't fix it!

    Why no corn? How do you know corn is the issue here?
         
        06-02-2013, 11:42 PM
      #24
    Super Moderator
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by xXcre8tiveXx    
    Thanks for the reply, as far as her diet goes when I first got her she was just on alfalfa no gain or supplements. She was a little under weight too but since having her she has lost tons of weight because my other mares will chase her away from her food. So now I've separated her and put her on senior grain, a supplement witch has oats in it and beet pulp but as far as I can tell its not really made a difference on her hotness and energy level. I want to take her off the gain but she is a pretty hard keeper and I don't know if beet pulp and hay will be enough.
    You are right, more than likely the hay and beet pulp wonít be enough. You can still look at grain free supplements/feeds if you want to take her off traditional grains.
    I did use Nutrena Safechoice as a good grain free feed while between two different RBís (my feed store had an availability issue and I had to use something while the problem got worked out.)

    Or, you can use a ration balancer along with the beet pulp. RB's contain a lot of micronutrients as well, so most horse don't miss out by taking the ďgrainsĒ portion of a diet away from them. Some come in higher fat formulas too.

    RB's can be fed alone or as part of a diet containing other feed stuff and many use it to boost nutrients, help with weight gain, and to help hard keepers.
    My horse gets an RB only for his ďfeedĒ and around one cup a day (yes, a baker's measuring cup) because he is an easy keeper.
    But RBs can be fed at higher amounts for horses who need the increased intake.

    My guess is (and admittedly, it is just a guess) an RB will help your girl as well as fill in any nutritional gaps she may have.
    There have been some good discussions here about RB here and if you do a search in the search box, they should come up. Also, you could try looking at the websites for your preferred feed brand and seeing what they have for a ration balancer.

    Iím not trying to push RBís on you, honestly , I just donít want you to think you donít have other feed options if you want to try something different for your girl.
         
        06-03-2013, 08:57 AM
      #25
    Weanling
    "Can you state fact to back up your theory? Id like to read into this sort of thing- links are welcomed!"
    It's called 65+ years of experience. A lot of time with "hot" horses. If you want more details, visit any of the small time race tracks. That's where I learned of the U-7. The big time ones, use more expensive products, that do not work any better, but they feel better about spending more money. The facts are: over 95% of all horses in regular training(hot or not) will get ulcers if not prevented by some form of medication. If they are "hot" the percentage is almost 100%. For the average horse owner, it is more expensive to diagnose them as it is to treat and/or prevent them with U-7. Ulcers are the number one reason, some horses are considered hard keepers. They are also high on the list of unresponsive horses, ie, difficult to train.

    "Unless signs of ulcers are present treatin them can cause bigger problems.. if it aint broke don't fix it! " Not at all. U-7 is a digestive aide, that as a side affect, both treats and prevents ulcers.

    "Why no corn? How do you know corn is the issue here?"
    Corn is the number one producer of internal heat. More heat promotes ulcers. I've known corn was a problem for many years, but only found out why about 20 years ago.

    It is the hull on whole grains that aggravates ulcers, and makes the lining in the stomach more susceptible to their formation.

    Grass is the number one, best cure/prevention for ulcers. Very few horses on regular pasture with weekend only training(working in hand) contact ulcers. This explains why the incidence of ulcers is much higher in the winter time, when there is no grass. The saving grace for many horse is the lack of training by the average person in the winter time.
         
        06-03-2013, 12:00 PM
      #26
    Banned
    Im not callin you out- just intrigued by your thoughts and method.

    I don't think this horse is hot- just nervous- and not to offend the OP but the a nervous horse and a green rider will only make a more nervous horse. I think this horse just needs a calm handler and to be messed with every day for at least 30 minutes every day.

    I agree with you on the ulcer deal but I still wouldnt go feeding a horse ulcer medication with out a veterinarian sayin for certian that's the problem- kinda seems like a waste of money if the horse don't really have that issue.. I think a vet checkup would be advised if that was the worry.


    Grass alone don't prevent ulcers- saliva does- when a horse chews grass and hay it salivates and the saliva lessens the acid in the horses stomach.. I don't mean to 'call' ya but that last bit is false.. unless you mean alkali grasses- then yes, it would neutralize the acid in a horses stomach.
         
        06-03-2013, 03:19 PM
      #27
    Super Moderator
    I think that the use of "trust" for leadership matters is perhaps a matter of semantics. Perhaps Bob is pointing out that to use "trust" when talking about being/training your horse to follow your leadership can cause problems with people, because we think that trust can be built simply by our being "nice", or by literally asking for it nicely from the horse. It works with humans, so we tend to apply that logic to horses. Trouble can result from that.

    I do want to comment on Bob's remark:

    "Your nervous horse must be taught, that what ever it is causing her flight instinct to come forth, will not hurt her when you are near. Allowing her to be nervous while your are near, is teaching her to be nervous. "

    That is a very interesting statement, the bolded part. I never thought of it that way but I think this will be something for me to keep in mind and incorporate in my ever-changing approach to horses. I thank you.
    flytobecat and toto like this.
         
        06-03-2013, 04:12 PM
      #28
    Green Broke
    So, it sounds like backing up and moving sideways is her way of evading things.
    I hate to give you advice because I don't know how well you ride and can't see the horse's exact reaction.
    I used to lease a gelding that would back up to get out of doing stuff. When he started that, I would back him up in a circle until he gave me his head (I could feel him yield to me willingly), then stop him and resume what I was doing. Eventually, he realized it was easier to go along with me not against me.
    Two months really isn't a lot in horse time. If she hasn't been worked in a long time then she hasn't had a lot of stimuli to keep her brain trained. I would assume she knows nothing and start from the beginning. You will be able to figure out pretty quick the things she does know that way and the things you need to work on.
    Being consistent in how you interact with her and remaining calm yourself will go along way in getting her to calm down.
    I personally would cut back on the alfalfa and grain, but that's just me. Diet wise, I wouldn't change too much at once.
         
        06-04-2013, 09:36 AM
      #29
    Weanling
    "I agree with you on the ulcer deal but I still wouldnt go feeding a horse ulcer medication with out a veterinarian sayin for certian that's the problem- kinda seems like a waste of money if the horse don't really have that issue.. I think a vet checkup would be advised if that was the worry."

    The cost of diagnosing and treating ulcers the vet way(scope) and their meds, will cost you 10+ times as much as using the U-7. I did that several times. Wound up spending over $2000.00/horse to diagnosis and treat them. It worked but a $60.00 jug of U-7 will do the same thing. If you have a horse that has a high probability of getting them, just use the U-7 from the get go. Any horse in regular training, any hot/nervous horse has a high probability of getting them. Not worth taking the chance, and the vet way is far too expensive. If you start the U-7 before they get them, you can use the maintenance dose and your cost of preventing them is very minor, like less than $50.00/month.


    "Grass alone don't prevent ulcers- saliva does- when a horse chews grass and hay it salivates and the saliva lessens the acid in the horses stomach.. I don't mean to 'call' ya but that last bit is false.. unless you mean alkali grasses- then yes, it would neutralize the acid in a horses stomach."

    Tell my horses this that where cured with nothing but six months of fescue grass. At that time we scoped for diagnosis, both before and after, but I didn't want to spend the money on their recommended drugs again. I did a lot of research finding info on grass and ulcers, and found little in the medical profession. It was the low end race horse trainers, that really know the facts.
         
        06-04-2013, 02:16 PM
      #30
    Yearling
    Do animals "trust?" Define "trust."

    If by that they mean "get acclimated to the presence of one or more persons" then the answer is "yes." If by that they mean "trust" as in "rely without reservation" then the answer is "no."

    Domestic horses have been bred for at least 6,000 years (and maybe as long as 14,000 years) to quickly accept human presence. This means quick acclimation. That's a good thing. As with any animal, you get some who quickly settle and others who don't. But the breeding for quick acclimation has been there for a long time.

    Bob is right about intelligently using the round pen to encourage that acceptance, even seeking, of human presence. Done right it makes breaking to saddle or harness a much easier task.

    For a really good discussion of this and other equine behavior topics I most highly recommend a book called Evidence Based Horsemanship. Here is the url: Evidence-Based Horsemanship It explains a lot of equine behaviors from a scientific perspective; it also discusses how to effectively use those behaviors.

    A fact of equine physiology is that horses lack a large neocortex and thus lack the ability to love, hate, play jokes, or do most other human mental "tricks." Those who claim otherwise have fallen into the trap of anthropomorphization.

    G.
         

    Thread Tools



    All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:52 AM.


    Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
    Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0