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post #11 of 58 Old 09-08-2012, 08:38 PM
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Well, I can tell that to the horses who have hurt themselves trying to compensate for a rider's weight and see if they agree

Next time I'm on Raina, I will just let her fly around without any attempt to rebalance her in the trot and canter, and see how far that will get us.

The headset should never be the main point to riding. The headset comes when a horse is properly engaged in the back and being driven into the bridle, where he meets soft hands and is in his own balance. Thats why a headset looks so appealing, because it signifies that the horse is balanced, straight and responsive to the aids. Unfortunately, the headset can be faked and it is faked a lot just for looks.

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music
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post #12 of 58 Old 09-08-2012, 11:04 PM Thread Starter
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thanks to everyone with your replys....its extremely interesting seeing the different viewpoints. and yet confusing too. let me interject this thought, my riding partner, his walker mare goes with her head tucked, and he says he's never ever done anything to train her, or to encourage this. i have no reason to not believe him. so thats why i ask, Is it possible that this is a bred in trait?

Last edited by Dead Rabbit; 09-08-2012 at 11:14 PM.
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post #13 of 58 Old 09-08-2012, 11:11 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ponyboy View Post
First, nose in or out has nothing to do with true collection. Second, a TWH who was very hollow in the back would not be able to gait properly they would pace instead. If your horse is not doing that, you probably don't have to worry that she's going to develop back problems from being too hollow.

People forget that most horses never receive any training in collection and yet they don't suffer back problems, or fall a lot with their riders either. Heck, I used to know a 25-year-old school horse who was still going strong despite never getting training in collection and being ridden by novices all her life. Collection is not a bad thing but it's also not necessary for the average pleasure horse.

All that to say, if your mare seems healthy and happy let her be. It really is just cosmetic.

of course i can only offer my inexperienced viewpoint. but she seems to be happy and she's very healthy. she naturally gaited, i dont think she's pacey. her gait isnt the smoothest but she's quick to go into her running walk when i cluck to her. perhaps its my fault shes not smoother, could be my lack of experience. these are things i dont know. id love to see her tuck her head. but using her for just trail riding, its not a necessity, course all these posts about correct collection, is all a new thought to me. so im learning.
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post #14 of 58 Old 09-08-2012, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
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and another thought...........being she was trained to work cattle. i was wondering if keeping her head out was something that was encouraged, for quicker manuvering, and whatnot. dont know, just mere speculation. what do ya'll think of that theory?
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post #15 of 58 Old 09-08-2012, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Rabbit View Post
let me interject this thought, my riding partner, his walker mare goes with her head tucked, and he says he's never ever done anything to train her, or to encourage this. i have no reason to not believe him. so thats why i ask, Is it possible that this is a bred in trait?
Did your riding partner buy her already trained? Or train her himself?

Like I said before, once the horse in engaged through the hindend, correctly balanced and responding off of leg, the headset will come naturally. Some horses are harder than others to accept this. Some horses have balance issues, others have issues not wanting to engage the hind end. If you have a horse who can do all of these things easily (naturally athletic), then the horse will reach into the bit and tuck their head without needing that extra balance training.

It could be achieved through the bit, too. I've known horses to instantly tuck their head to escape the pressure of a harsher bit.

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music
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post #16 of 58 Old 09-08-2012, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead Rabbit View Post
let me interject this thought, my riding partner, his walker mare goes with her head tucked, and he says he's never ever done anything to train her, or to encourage this. i have no reason to not believe him. so thats why i ask, Is it possible that this is a bred in trait?

Yes this is a bred trait. You'll notice many breeds and many horses within a breed will do it naturally. It's also a trainable skill. I prefer to train my horses how to do it and to do it occasionally to brush up their skills, but I do not try to push my horse into a position they don't naturally want to carry themselves in for more than a couple minutes at a time. That's my preference. If you want to learn about "proper collection" find a dressage trainer - the internet just can't communicate what that means clearly. It's all in the feel, the way the horse holds his body, like has been said before the headset is a side effect of moving in a collected fashion.
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post #17 of 58 Old 09-08-2012, 11:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Copperhead View Post
Did your riding partner buy her already trained? Or train her himself?

Like I said before, once the horse in engaged through the hindend, correctly balanced and responding off of leg, the headset will come naturally. Some horses are harder than others to accept this. Some horses have balance issues, others have issues not wanting to engage the hind end. If you have a horse who can do all of these things easily (naturally athletic), then the horse will reach into the bit and tuck their head without needing that extra balance training.

It could be achieved through the bit, too. I've known horses to instantly tuck their head to escape the pressure of a harsher bit.
she was bred and raised by him. and mainly ever ridden by him. he quit riding almost 12 yrs ago, because of the loss of his riding partner, his daughter. now he started riding again because of me. so his mare went many yrs w/o out being ridden. she just seemed according to him to come by it naturally. id say his mare is naturally athletic. i dont know much about this type of thing but shes a dream to watch go. from her natural walk to her running walk, shes a thing to see. sheer beauty...... when i asked him about my mare not tucking her head, he really had no answer, he said a head set. or type of bit my help. curbstrap. i now use a curb strap. but it didnt change her.
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post #18 of 58 Old 09-08-2012, 11:23 PM
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Using a stronger bit is a cheatting way to make a horse hold their head in a different position, but like has been stated, their head will fall in the desired position when their body is in the right position.
If this means a lot to you find a dressage trainer. If not then don't worry about it.
What type of bit do you use and what style of reining do you use? neck or direct?
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post #19 of 58 Old 09-08-2012, 11:28 PM Thread Starter
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shes neck reined. and here is a link to the bit im using. ive ridden about 15 miles on her with this bit. before that i used a simple snaffle. the folks i bought her from said she was used to using a tom thumb.

AT Low Port Loose Cheek Low Port Western Bit 5in - Statelinetack.com
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post #20 of 58 Old 09-08-2012, 11:34 PM
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I used to be SUCH a guru for a proper headset. When I was training, the headset meant the horse was using his body properly, everything I was working for!

Now that I'm not training anything but my own horse, I just let her nose poke out all she wants on a loose rein, as long as she is balanced. If she becomes unbalanced, I gather the reins up and rebalance her. When I want to put her into real work, the body engages and the head drops. But proper engagement isn't what I'm striving for anymore, so I don't worry about it half as much as I used to. We're training for team penning, and something tells me piaffeing after cattle isn't the best way to pen them!

I use a snaffle on my horse and she does well with it. I've teetered on changing her bit but I didn't see the reason for it because I'd be fixing something that wasn't broken.

And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music
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