SaddleBreds - Page 2
   

       The Horse Forum > Horse Breeds, Breeding, and Genetics > Horse Breeds > Gaited Horses

SaddleBreds

This is a discussion on SaddleBreds within the Gaited Horses forums, part of the Horse Breeds category
  • Saddlebreds
  • Used horse tail sets

Like Tree95Likes

 
LinkBack Thread Tools
    07-21-2013, 01:24 PM
  #11
Started
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseluver65    
I never said I hate Saddlebreds... I just don't like the way they are treated.... And in my opinion- after being with arabians- they are ugly.... There are some that are nicer than others but.... As for the tail sets, they are way more cruel than a saddle or blanket- the fact that the muscle is cut and scarred to heal that way is ridiculous... And their lifespan is much shorter because their legs and joints are blown by the time they are 10. Swayback is also an issue because that is not the natural carriage of their head. Stacked shoes can weigh alot and it's not good for their legs. Trust me, I've assisted many farriers. Gingering is not illegal where I Live, it's only certain breeds where it's not allowed(like arabians). A bike chain bit is one of the worst bits to put in horse's mouth... if you HAVE to use one- A: You don't know what your doing B: The trainer doesn't know s***. C: Your horse has not been trained very well.... Any horse will do anything without the cruelty of a bit if you or trainer know how to train them..... I hate when people don't know what their doing so they shove a nastier bit in the horses mouth to solve the issue... yes, a snaffle may do that but again, if it was used properly-it wouldn't.... Again, this is just my opinion, YOU can think whatever you want but I think everything in this sport is wrong. If you have a saddlebred just to have one and you don't do all the other stuff, it's different... .

Gingering is against the Association's rules..not state laws. As you should know, being an experienced show owner like you are saying you are, it is your breed association that sets the rules about what can be done or used at the shows.

For instance use of chains or action devices with your breed? That is your association, NOT your state.

You know nothing about tailset horses. I do. And if one does have to have something done, which again is rare, it is NOT the muscle. It is a tiny cut on a ligament, and again is RARELY done.

I made my living many years as a Master Saddlebred Show Horse groom. I worked with those horses every day, AND started horses to wear a tailset. So when I tell you I know what goes on in these training barns? I do.

And it is not stacked shoes, they are mostly leather pads of narrow leather usually 1/8 inch and are used for stride/breakover. They are not the same shoes the Big Licks use.

What exactly did you do to assist farriers? Hold the rope?

As for the trainers? HOW DARE YOU? That is a slap in the face to all of us that love this breed and respect the men and women who have worked so hard to show them, raise them, and love them. As well as a slap to our "ugly horses"....isn't that how you put it?

My trainers were GREAT horsemen. Better than anything you will ever aspire to be, much less be yourself.

And since my trainers were Dale Pugh, Art Simmons and OUR trainer was Sug Utz when we owned the great WC Mimi Genius, and my father was a Saddlebred trainer himself, and was an assistant trainer under Welch Greenwell, I would suggest you mention to someone familiar with this breed how these trainers don't/didn't know ****. I dare you.

My father was also sought out by the King Ranch in Texas to come train. Was yours?

We showed our horse at the wonderful small local shows all the way up to Chicago International, Tulsa, American Royal and Madison Square Garden. Where exactly have you shown again?

I rode with Temple Stephens himself when he was in his 80's, the owner and exhibitor of Easter Serenade, knew R.P. Glenn through conversations I had with him, worked with Alice Thompson, catch groomed for Wallens, Suttons, helped Jack Baker's grooms...as well as various others.

As well as know many many people still in the Saddlebred world both trainers, owners and breeders. I can go anywhere and mention Mimi, and people still remember her, remember my dad. Doubt that you will be able to say the same 60+ years from the fact.

As for lordosis, that has nothing to do with their head carriage, and yes, that IS their natural head carriage, as you would know if you spent any time at all learning about various and sundry breeds.

Pretty obvious from your spelling and punctuation as well as paragraph structure you are educated well, but you can type in "Saddlebred foals" in the search engine, or copy and paste it if you can't manage to spell two words and find all sorts of pretty pictures to look at, since any polysyllabic words may be out of your league.

The great majority of Saddlebreds live well into 20's and up and most are still useable too, and sound as if they were 2 years old. I have never seen a horse with legs or joints blown for that matter. While there are some horse with problems? You will find that in any breed.

As for mule bit, that is used to get one to settle into a rack and only used for that period of time, and lightly to boot. It is not used because someone doesn't know what they are doing.

Any bit can, just by being used period, and not roughly either, can leave sore area on edge of horse's mouth, which you would know if you knew anything at all about horses.

And your statement that any horse can be trained to do anything without a bit, pretty well describes you in a nutshell.

The mark of a TRUE HORSEMAN is that they respect the beauty of all breeds. Not that they announce their ignorance by attacking a breed they clearly know NOTHING about.

You should be ashamed of yourself. And hope IF you have a horse, or are around any true horsemen, they get wind of how you act on a forum where you know no one, as I imagine they will, given enough time. I would be willing to bet that the way you acted here, is only a small sample of what you are in real life.

And the horse world is very very small indeed. For that matter? I DO know Arabian breeders and exhibitors and trainers, as do many of us on here. Your little tirade about a breed that you are so ignorant about, may well beat you back to the barn...if you even have a barn to go to.



Go peddle crazy somewhere else, we're all full up here.
     
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
    07-21-2013, 02:08 PM
  #12
Started
Oh boy fun times. Here is your original post, so you don't think I am changing your words on you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseluver65    
I never said I hate Saddlebreds... I just don't like the way they are treated.... And in my opinion- after being with arabians- they are ugly.... There are some that are nicer than others but.... As for the tail sets, they are way more cruel than a saddle or blanket- the fact that the muscle is cut and scarred to heal that way is ridiculous... And their lifespan is much shorter because their legs and joints are blown by the time they are 10. Swayback is also an issue because that is not the natural carriage of their head. Stacked shoes can weigh alot and it's not good for their legs. Trust me, I've assisted many farriers. Gingering is not illegal where I Live, it's only certain breeds where it's not allowed(like arabians). A bike chain bit is one of the worst bits to put in horse's mouth... if you HAVE to use one- A: You don't know what your doing B: The trainer doesn't know s***. C: Your horse has not been trained very well.... Any horse will do anything without the cruelty of a bit if you or trainer know how to train them..... I hate when people don't know what their doing so they shove a nastier bit in the horses mouth to solve the issue... yes, a snaffle may do that but again, if it was used properly-it wouldn't.... Again, this is just my opinion, YOU can think whatever you want but I think everything in this sport is wrong. If you have a saddlebred just to have one and you don't do all the other stuff, it's different... .

Quote:
I never said I hate Saddlebreds... I just don't like the way they are treated....
"They" as an entire breed? Or "they" as in the few you have seen? There is a BIG difference.

Quote:
And in my opinion- after being with arabians- they are ugly.... There are some that are nicer than others but....
Arabians would probably be the LAST breed of horse I would consider looking at to own. They do not appeal to me in any way. I would NEVER think to call them ugly. Some are, but chances are those ugly horses are loved by someone, and I would never want to hurt their feelings.

That being said, some of my favorite people are Arabian people. I would never say "Oh dear god. That horse is hideous compared to a Saddlebred." Well, I might say it to one of them, just as a joke, because I know he would take it AS a joke. I tell my sister her Saddlebreds are hideous all the time JUST to get to her. She has NO sense of humor and cannot take a joke. Sisterly love.

I don't understand National Horses, though. I have heard they are awesome, but I can get that awesomeness in a full Saddlebred. I am sure you could get that awesomeness in a full arab. More power to the people who own them. I will take my Saddlebreds how I take my bourbon. High quality and pure.

Quote:
As for the tail sets, they are way more cruel than a saddle or blanket- the fact that the muscle is cut and scarred to heal that way is ridiculous...
It is purely cosmetic, so I will give you that ridiculous comment. The sets themselves really are no more cruel than a saddle or blanket. The sets themselves are not the issue. It is the act of altering the tail for cosmetic purposes that can be seen as cruel. It is similar to, but MUCH LESS cruel than the cropping of dogs' ears for fashion. The healing time is a lot quicker. The procedure is a lot less mangling. And once they are healed, there is no pain. The incision sites don't hurt. The tail has more flexibility to be set in a brace. The horse still has full use of his tail. I can definitely see though, people believing it cruel.

I had to wear a retainer when I got my braces off. It wasn't the most pleasant of things, but nothing painful about it. The braces were the painful part.

Quote:
And their lifespan is much shorter because their legs and joints are blown by the time they are 10.
See my post above.

Quote:
Swayback is also an issue because that is not the natural carriage of their head.
Please research Lordosis. Lordosis is a genetic issue. Yes a horse with lordosis has the appearance of a higher neck carriage. The high neck carriage is not the cause of lordosis. PLEEEASE do your research before posting stuff like this. Here is a BRIEF paragraph describing lordosis in Saddlebreds. I have met the scientists working on the project, and have had them out to the farm to use my horses. Look up their research on the subject. It is fascinating! PAG-XVIII (P621) Genetics Of Extreme Lordosis In Saddlebred Horses

As for not the natural carriage of their heads. You really do know nothing about the breed. That is like saying Arabians don't have a naturally higher head carriage. What are you comparing these horses to? Not all horses are built the same.

I will post some yearling photos. Yearlings do change, but they at least show basic structure of breeds with generally minimal HUMAN alteration. Generally haven't had any major handling or training to affect their bodies either.

Here is a thoroughbred yearling.
http://www.edinburghpark.com.au/pict...arling_lge.jpg

Here is a quarter horse yearling
http://www.stallionesearch.com/newsf...sssassdash.jpg

Here is an arabian yearling. Would this be a babyrabian? LMAO!
http://www.majezticarabians.com/images/vh311.jpg

Here is a Shire yearling.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...42605436_n.jpg

Here is a camel.
http://www.expatads.com/adpics/yearl...f91ca75501.jpg

Here are a couple saddlebreds.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...79719573_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot...40878671_n.jpg

Just a cute baby photo.
https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphot..._7516779_n.jpg

Quote:
Stacked shoes can weigh alot and it's not good for their legs. Trust me, I've assisted many farriers.
Here is an excerpt from AskTheTrainer. Lonnie Lavery was a master. He was such an intelligent man who knew "everything". Trainers went to him with questions, and Saddlebred trainers are PROUD.

April 22, 2008 "For show horses I trained I've always had a blacksmith make them for each horse as each horse has a different way of going and may require a different type of shoe to be comfortable. If you have an American Saddlebred you can be certain that Walking Horse shoes would probably not be what you need. On the whole, Show Walking Horses wear very heavy shoes, much too heavy for an American Saddlebred. (Plantation Walking Horses are a different division and wear shoes that could be suited to an American Saddlebred) An American Saddlebred might wear a shoe that weighs 18-20 ounces. (A little less than a pair of steel toed work boots worn by people in the construction business.)"

And another.

September 12, 2009 Your question was "is it possible that a horse can have better motion without a big package?" Let me put it this way....best way to stop a horse from winging...lighten him up.....Best way to stop a horse from knocking his elbows off...lighten him up....Best way to stop a horse from forging...lighten him up...Best way to stop a horse from interfering...lighten him up etc, etc, etc!!!! Finally...best way to stop a very talented, naturally high motioned athletic horse from using his legs....put a long foot and heavy shoes on him!!!! I am in no way suggesting that all show horses should wear plates and a 4 inch hoof. Sensible corrective shoeing is indispensable for balancing the horse and his gaits as each horse is different. The key word is sensible.

I always felt that if a horse had only enough ability to go almost level and he did so with a 20 oz shoe and went the same with 6 oz shoe, what possible reason is there to carry the heavier shoe? Less is better in that case as well!




Quote:
Gingering is not illegal where I Live, it's only certain breeds where it's not allowed(like arabians).
I will check the rules, but I am fairly certain Palomine it is still legal with the ASHA and maybe USEF. It is definitely illegal with babies.

Quote:
A bike chain bit is one of the worst bits to put in horse's mouth...
Palomine has this one.

Quote:
if you HAVE to use one- A: You don't know what your doing B: The trainer doesn't know s***. C: Your horse has not been trained very well....
How many horses have YOU trained my dear? Big talk like that usually requires some sort of backing. Just observing and assuming is not enough on this issue.

Quote:
Any horse will do anything without the cruelty of a bit if you or trainer know how to train them.....
Well yes. Cavalia is proof of that. Not all training or use of bits or equipment is cruel.

Quote:
I hate when people don't know what their doing so they shove a nastier bit in the horses mouth to solve the issue...
I too hate people who don't know what they are doing. I also hate people who don't know what they are talking about.

Quote:
yes, a snaffle may do that but again, if it was used properly-it wouldn't....
So... a bit when used properly is fine and not cruel?

Another quote from LL.

April 30, 2012 Although I am certain you are not aware of it, the basic premise of the question has been asked since Roman times and, incidentally, it has made millionaires out of thousands of bit makers! Severe or not severe? Smooth or sharp? Frankly, there is no iron clad answer…it depends on the horse and more importantly, as in the Tip of the Day, on the rider.
To illustrate, I quote from two of the finest and most successful horse trainers it was my privilege to know (ones even novice ASB owners would have heard of) as I was learning my craft. In answer to my question about how a horse’s mouth should be, Trainer #1 said, "I bit ‘em sharp and ride ‘em very light. You can ride with a razor blade if your hands are soft." Now that he cleared that up for me, I asked Trainer #2 the very same question...His response, "I just push them up to that bridle and take my best hold." So there you have it, hope that clears it up for you... Seriously, that should give you an idea on how diverse opinion is on this subject and that there is no definitive answer. (I chose to follow Trainer #1’s biting philosophy throughout my career and although it might vary some on a per horse basis, I always found “pitching” much more rewarding than “pulling”)

A smooth snaffle, when slid forcefully left and right, can be quite severe. A sharp twisted snaffle, when strongly held with no movement, can be less severe than the smooth snaffle. We go back to the rider's hands. As far as the "4-ring straight bar bit" , broken snaffles work more on the corners of the mouth as straight bar bits distribute pressure, evenly, on the bars of the mouth. (Much like a curb) In my opinion, a straight bar bit is an indispensable training tool especially when working in harness. Going on that “per horse” basis, I have had horses that resent and then get strong and pull on a severe bit whereas they are light in a smooth snaffle. Taking all of this into consideration, I would go with whatever your horse "tells" you he likes so both of you can have a pleasant ride.


Quote:
Again, this is just my opinion, YOU can think whatever you want but I think everything in this sport is wrong.
So, you hate the sport? Or the breed? Or the people? Arabians are shown in Saddleseat too. Do you hate the sport there? If you hate the breed, why bother posting such nastiness. I don't care if you hate the breed, don't just come in looking to start trouble. And I hate a lot of people in the sport. I have seen MANY abuses within my own breed and discipline. Horrible horrible things. Those people that commit those acts do not represent the whole, for I am apart of that whole. I love seeing those horrible people fail.

Quote:
If you have a saddlebred just to have one and you don't do all the other stuff, it's different...
So, you can have one. Just don't show it. LOL!
     
    07-21-2013, 02:57 PM
  #13
Foal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseluver65    
Ummm "Bashing the breed" has nothing to do with my arabians.......
Exactly. You wouldn't bash your own breed, so why do you feel it's okay to bash another? By the way, from what I have read on Arabian forums, your breed is no stranger to cruel, abusive and unsportsmanlike behavior. Pot meet Kettle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horseluver65    
And they didn't have any arab classes because there were none registered. That has ALWAYS been the show we go to...
So why are you complaining? The show apparently wasn't being supported by the Arabian people, ergo no Arabian classes. So whose problem is that?

Personally, I love Saddlebreds. Next to Peruvians, Saddlebreds are one of my favorite breeds. I have always wanted to own one. I try to get to the C-Fair show every year because I enjoy watching them. Even though Saddlebreds aren't my breed, I have read the trot.org forum for many years just for the wealth and depth of information the Saddlebred people have.
     
    07-21-2013, 03:01 PM
  #14
Started
On the use of Ginger. I called and talked to them at the Saddlebred Association, and asked about this, and was told that it was now illegal?

I know it had been for pleasure classes, but was unsure about others.

And had found it too on the American Saddlebred association website too.

Sunday, so no one to call of course, but if can't find it again on site will give them a call Monday and get them to give me rule, or no rule as case may be.
     
    07-21-2013, 03:15 PM
  #15
Started
Oh okay. Cool. Thanks a lot!
     
    07-21-2013, 03:18 PM
  #16
Started
This it to the OP...Maybe you should do some searching using the words "Arabians and Gingering"...get more than a few hits on how that is going on in Arabian halter classes.

Talk on Arabian forums is rampant about this very thing going on in BNT's barns.





Pot meet kettle.
     
    07-21-2013, 03:34 PM
  #17
Started
Well well well.

I typed in "Cruelty in the Arabian Horse World and got TONS of hits. 17 million plus some to be exact.

And much of that seems to be here in America.

Rampant too for that matter.

Found a book called Justice for Speedy...seems to be about this? I ordered it and should be here Tuesday.

Back to this post.

I was unaware of the rampant abuse going on in the Arabian show horse world.

OP...you really need to do some cleaning up in your own breed before you come here low rating Saddlebreds. Clearly there is much to be done.

Shankers - All Nations Cup, Aachen 2011 - not a lot of horse sense here - Horse Sense

OH this looks really great...so kind and loving to the Arabians you swear you love?
     
    07-21-2013, 03:44 PM
  #18
Trained
Man, what is in the WATER lately?

I cannot imagine anyone who is truly from the Arab industry having the nerve to say anything about how any other breed is treated. Arabians are some of the most mistreated and artificially enhanced horses alive today (in the show ring) and somebody would have the nerve to say something about the Saddlebreds? WHAT?

Ginger: Still a HUGE issue in Arab show rings.
Capsicum: Same as ginger
Over shoeing for any type of class, now using weighted shoes in Hunt and Western Pleasure.
Tattooing excess white so it doesn't show
Tattooing eyeballs to get rid of human eye
Electric shocking to obtain the tight halter stance
Excessive whipping for the same reason
Tying heads and putting pipes in mouths of Western Pleasure horses to keep them "still"
Doping with ACTH & Magnesium (IV magnesium aka hot shot)
Injecting Alcohol into the tails of Western Pleasure horses to keep them from swishing
Cutting nerves so that the horse can't move its tail AT ALL (OOOPS did someone say tail set was cruel?)

I could write a novel about the stuff going on in the Arab show ring. Since a lot of Arab people love Saddlebreds and love to cross them and make an NSH, it happens to them too. So, I should go rant about a Saddlebred or TWH's treatment? HOLY COW! I don't have the nerve.

And a Saddlebred is UGLY? Compared to an ARAB?





Which one is the pure bred Arab?
LadyDreamer, Cat, Palomine and 1 others like this.
     
    07-21-2013, 03:50 PM
  #19
Banned
They're all beautiful and there are morons in every breed and discipline.
     
    07-21-2013, 05:16 PM
  #20
Started
DCA...how horrible...I had apparently only touched the tip.
     

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Saddlebreds? jewelerin74 Horse Breeds 41 07-28-2013 07:57 AM
Anyone Know Anything About These Two Saddlebreds? countryryder Horse Talk 0 12-29-2012 08:57 PM
Saddlebreds? MangoRoX87 Horse Breeds 19 05-09-2012 03:31 PM
Tell me about Saddlebreds!! SeeinSpotz Horse Talk 9 12-29-2009 07:24 PM
Saddlebreds Saddlebred girl Horse Breeds 50 06-15-2008 03:21 PM



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.0